Correct lock for a Hawken?

[Boompa]

  I've been wanting to put a flint Hawken together and rather than buy a kit, I've accumulated components over several months.  I have the barrel mated to the breech, tang fitted to the hook breech,  and I have a good hard maple stock.  I already had Chambers late Ketland lock.  None of the kits I looked at use the Ketland but it seems like it would be an appropriate lock, what do you think? If I use it should I file the point off the rear of the lock giving it a rounded shape?

[bob in the woods]

I think that lock is too small for a Hawken, but then I'm no expert.

[sqrldog]

Boompa
Do a search for flintlock Hawken, back in Aug 20015 Dave Rase showed a pic of a Chambers late Ketland on a Hawken he was building. It looked great to me. Be aware that the late Ketland doesn't work well on barrels over 1" across the flats without a little work.

[rich pierce]

I agree the Late Ketland could look a little dainty but if you build the rifle around the parts instead of following a precarve stock design, and rounded the tail, I bet it could look good.  You might want to go a little more "Maryland" in style than "fully developed plains rifle" with that lock.  I'd like to hear what Don Stith, Taylor S and Louie Parker would say about lock choices for flint Hawkens.

I sure wish there were more models available for the late flint period.  I'm not a big fan of the L&R Manton completely waterproof pan.  Otherwise it's a good looking lock for an American rifle of the late flint period.  Just seems a little sophisticated and fancy to me.  That being said, I used it for a flint Hawken as there was nothing else close back then.

[thimble rig]

I'm no expert my any means.Did you look at Taylors Hawkens hes building.Ithink he is using a l and r lock on his flintlock hes making I could be wrong.

[Swampwalker]

While the Chambers late Ketland is a great lock, it's an earlier style than would seem appropriate for a Hawken.  As you know, there are no known existing flintlock Hawken rifles; if they had made one I would think it would have used an 1830's style lock, which typically had a double throated cock, and a waterproof pan.  The L&R flintlock mentioned that Tyler is using is closer to this style. 

[Swampwalker]

I just looked up the name of the L&R lock - it's the 'Late English'.  I just finished a Hawken using this lock, and while I've got a couple of issues with it, it seems to be well made, balanced, and fast.  Looking to try it out this weekend. 

[GANGGREEN]

I sent you a private message Boompa.

[David Rase]

Boompa,
Here is a photo of the reworked Ketland lock in my Hawken fullstock.  To give you an idea of the proportions, the barrel is 1 1/16" across the flats.  I rounded the tail well into the rear of the bolster area.  I also concaved the underside a bit.  I used the lock from the Wayne Robidoux Hawken print for the lock plate profile.
 

[rich pierce]

Looks good. Did you finish the build and show it here?

[rsells]

I have a project in line which is a full stock flint Hawken.  I will be using a Rice straight taper barrel (1inch at the breech tapering to 7/8 at the muzzle 36 inches in length .54 cal).  I am going to use a late Ketland with the tail rounded like I use on my TN mountain rifles.  I think it will look great and the lock is fast and reliable.
                                                                                                                  Roger Sells

[Joe S.]

I agree the Late Ketland could look a little dainty but if you build the rifle around the parts instead of following a precarve stock design, and rounded the tail, I bet it could look good.  You might want to go a little more "Maryland" in style than "fully developed plains rifle" with that lock.  I'd like to hear what Don Stith, Taylor S and Louie Parker would say about lock choices for flint Hawkens.

I sure wish there were more models available for the late flint period.  I'm not a big fan of the L&R Manton completely waterproof pan.  Otherwise it's a good looking lock for an American rifle of the late flint period.  Just seems a little sophisticated and fancy to me.  That being said, I used it for a flint Hawken as there was nothing else close back then.

Think Rich has a good point,this going to be a long stock or half stock?

[Boompa]

  That looks great Dave.  The barrel I have is 15/16" across the flats with a slight taper of less than a 1/16" draw filed in.  The stock is not a precarve,(1/2 stock), just a crude shape with a narrow barrel channel and the RR hole drilled so I have opportunity to skinny the gun down a bit. I prefer Chambers locks so I'm thinking I'll go with it.

[Joe S.]

Half stocks tend to be a bit more robust than long stocks,perhaps you should wait for Taylor,Don,Louie or Herb to chime in before you make your choice.

[Boompa]

 Joe,  I'd intended to use the late Ketland on a southern mtn rifle so if I need to buy another lock it's okay. As I mentioned in the earlier post this stock is not pre-carved, allowing me room to downsize the profile some.  I too would be interested in hearing from some of the regular Hawken builders.

[Don Stith]

There is not one on the market but I'd use a Golcher lock with a reinforced cock. It would be 4 5/8 long and 1" high at the fence
 Thought I had Jim Chambers talked into making one a few years ago, but it did not happen. I had roughed out the plate sized to use the late ketland internals. I don't like the shape of the pan on the current late ketland
 That would be the perfect lock for a southern mountain rifle too
Don

[David Rase]

Since full stock Hawken flintlock rifles are for all practical purposes non existent, I would not get too wrapped around the axle on what is historically correct and what is not.  Modern folklore has lead us to believe that an L&R late English flint lock was the lock of choice for a period Hawken flintlock rifle that does not exist in sufficient quantities to draw a conclusion.  Go ahead and use the reshaped late Ketland.  Stylistically it is as good a choice as any other late English flintlock and it is functionally superior.
David

[Daryl]

David - you didn't answer Rich's question.

[okieboy]

Don, is this the kind of lock that you would use on a full  stock Hawken if you were making one in flint?

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Perfect!

I too believe the Chamber's Late Ketalnd lock would serve well for a flint Hawken.  Be careful to keep the lines slender, particularly the depth of the stock vertically through the lock.  David's is as good as it gets.

[David Rase]

David - you didn't answer Rich's question.

You are so right Daryl.  I have not posted pictures yet as I still have some work to do to complete the rifle. I keep letting barrel inletting, tools and fixtures and cliental's guns get in the way of my stuff.  The Hawken is next on  my list to finish.
David

[Bob Roller]

Don, is this the kind of lock that you would use on a full  stock Hawken if you were making one in flint?

I think that lock could be made by using the L&R replacement lock for the Dixie Tn.Mountain rifle.
I would call Jerry DeVaudreuil and get a Ketland cock with. Round the tail off on the plate.

Bob Roller

[Bob Roller]

Don, is this the kind of lock that you would use on a full  stock Hawken if you were making one in flint?

I think that lock could be made by using the L&R replacement lock for the Dixie Tn.Mountain rifle.
I would call Jerry DeVaudreuil and get a Ketland cock with. Round the tail off on the plate.

Bob Roller

A few things I meant to add. One is that for the last 3 weeks I have had worst case of bronchitis
ever and still feel like the rear end of hard times. I am not taking any new work and will get to what
I have to ASAP. Between the congestion and tendonitis AND the 6 above zero weather,I have just about reached the end of the road.

Bob Roller

[Bob Roller]

Don, is this the kind of lock that you would use on a full  stock Hawken if you were making one in flint?

I think that lock could be made by using the L&R replacement lock for the Dixie Tn.Mountain rifle.
I would call Jerry DeVaudreuil and get a Ketland cock with. Round the tail off on the plate.

Bob Roller

I got a Ketland cock from the shop and it IS compatible with the L&R replacement for the DGW Mtn Rifle lock.
It is easy to reshape the plate. I don't know if the square hole in this cock will work with the existing mechanism and I always think of a complete new mechanism.The number for this cock isG167 from Jerry DeVaudreuil and the top jaw is G15. I would also use a better looking frizzen spring which is G187,a cast one
that I've used for years with no reported troubles.This cock will also work with the Chambers late Ketland but a new tumbler will have to be made or the hole in the cock welded and recut.

Bob Roller

[gunmaker]

Would an unmarked 1803 lock be even close,  *** knows nothing about Hawkens***   Tom