Question to lock builders. What type of steel do you use for lockparts?

[Rolf]

Bob Roller has told us he uses 1144 stress proof for tumblers and O-1 for sears. Undoutably the best choices. I can't find a supplier in Norway.
I emailed onlinemetals and could get a  a piece 1144 , dia 1-1/4 , 12" long for $20.46, which is a nice price.  The problem is they ship ups and charge $ 166.55 to ship a 4# piece of steel to Norway. With toll and paperwork fees the total would come to $265 for a piece of metal that weighs  worth $20.  Not going place that order.

What other steels can you recommed?

Best regards
Rolf

[Bob Roller]

Rolf,
American 1018 or German K5 can be used if case hardened. I will also see what the U.S. Post Office can do. I won't use UPS for anything. It has become way too costly and they way they toss packages on the porch and then take off is not to my liking.You might call Helmut Mohr in Mayen/Hausen Germany and see if he can help with the K5. He sent me some samples years ago that were 10x25mm flat and that will make a sear.
His phone # from here in America is 011-49-2651-2644. He speaks English and I see you do as well.

Bob Roller

[Jim Kibler]

Aside from the springs, I would use low carbon mild steel for everything and just case harden them.  It will make your life easier.  Even the frizzen will work very well with a deep case.  I think you have a heat treat furnace so that wouldn't be a problem.  You'll find everything will work very well with this process.  

This was the traditional process used, except wrought iron was used instead of the mild steel.  Mild steel will be better.

For the springs anything between 1060 - 1095 will be fine.  You will ideally adjust the tempering temperature depending on the carbon content of the material chosen.  O-1 will work for springs too.  

Jim

[WadePatton]

I inquired to a one of the production lock makers and listed their reply on here, somewhere.  I don't recall where.  If I Recall Correctly (IIRC) there were three or four alloys involved.

It has been a year or two since that posting.

[ddoyle]

Rolf check Canada Post and get a guesstimate on shipping from Canada, I have an easy to deal with source (machine shop with tons of left over/out of spec goodies) for 1144 in small pieces at 2.50 pound. I think I bought all the 3/4 RB though  ;)PM if you want the contact info.

[Chris Treichel]

What about getting your steel from Sweden? They are one of the top producers of exceptional quality steel. Should be some supplier over there.
http://www.splav-kharkov.com/en/e_z_mat_type.php

http://keiusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Cross-Reference-of-Steel-Standards.pdf

[JCKelly]

I would
1. log on to dixiegunworks.com  and buy their book on spring making by the late Kit Ravenshear, about $6 U.S..

2. log on to abebooks.com and get all of the out-of-print gun making stuff by Kit Ravenshear. Cost these days in the range of $16 U.S.

I have been a metallurgist since our JFK was having fun with the ladies in the White House. There are a lot of choices of what steel to use. How you design the thing, finish the metal, and heat teat it may all be more important that which steel you use.

The very most important property of any steel is AVAILABILITY. Sounds like you already know this. In the USA I would buy through the internet from one or the other places that sell small quantities. Over here that means www.mcmaster.com and www.onlinemetals.com  Onlinemetals is  ThyssenKrupp owned, there must be something similar in Scandanavia.  Shipping costs of anything from the USA to the World are prohibitive, or so it seems to me.   

I personally would not make anything out of a resulphurized or phosphorous added steel. There is absolutely nothing good about these steels except they do machine very well, which is the reason for their existence. They make nice, crumbly little chips, not those nasty long curly things. I sincerely doubt that machining at a slower speed is a problem for you.

Nevertheless, the best lockmaker in the USA uses these steels.

[jerrywh]

 I have made at least 5 whole locks out of mild steel except for the springs. I just case hardened all the parts when finished. I made two hammers out of rail road spikes. The sears were made out of mild steel angle iron 1/4".  You can make the springs out of hay rake teeth or any type of spring steel. I made several main springs out of push lawnmower blades. There is a lot of good spring steel in old car springs. Like trunk lid springs and power window regulator springs.  When I was young I couldn't get regular steel very easy so I had to use what I could find.  The trick is in the heat treating and I know you can do that. Hope some of this will help you.
 

[Rolf]

Can't find any suppliers in Norway, Sweden or Denmark that will sell  steels in small quantities like onlinemetals or McMaster.
I can get hold of mild steel from a machine shop and have a heat treating oven. So, case hardening seems to be the  sensible option.

I have been offerd 30 mm round stock of 34CrNiMo6 / 1.6582 steel

1.Chemical Composition
Carbon:0.30/0.38; Silicon:Max0.40; Manganese:0.50/0.80;
Chromium:1.30/1.70; Molybdenum:0.15/0.30; Nickel:1.30/1.70;

2.Equivalent Grades
AISI/ASTM: 4340; JIS/KS: SNCM439;

Is this an alternativ for tumblers and sears?

Best regards
Rolf

[jerrywh]

My suggestion would be to stay away from chrome alloys for lock parts. Especially frizzens. I have worked with frizzens made from 6150 and they never spark very well no matter how you harden them. Chrome alloys don't color harden well either.
 You can get real good metal from the scrap yard if you know what to look for.
 I guess we are spoiled here in America. There is so much material available to us.

[Mark Elliott]

I would go with Jerry's advise to use mild steel.   I have worked with enough old locks that were case hardened wrought iron to know that that approach is quite serviceable and durable if well done.   If I was you I would look for scrap iron/steel from buildings and bridges.   That is most likely to be wrought iron or mild steel depending on the age.   I believe that old car chassis are a good source of the proper steel.   

[M. E. Pering]

Rolf... I have been doing this sort of research over the last few months as well, and here is my list of steels:

Springs:  1075, or old scrap leaf spring from a car/truck
Screws:   12L14
Sear, Fly, and Tumbler:  Scrapped axle from a car/truck
Frizzen Face:  1095
Lockplate, et al:  Scrap structural steel

Like Mark Elliot said, go to a scrap yard and find some junk structural steel.  For very little money, you will have a lifetime supply.  The most important type of steel is that which you use for springs.  I would avoid using scrap coil springs, as they have a significant amount of chromium, and I am not sure how that would work as a V-spring.  I would also question how forgable  that steel would be.  Hope this helps.

Matt

[jerrywh]

 Car axles are very good steel for internals. Some hood springs are flat coil type and they work good for springs.
 Lawn mower blade are good spring steel. As are hay rake teeth and power window regulator springs from cars. There is a lot of good steel in old cars because the auto industry get the best of the production. Old cars from the 70's has hood springs that were 3/8" round rods. I have forged main springs and frizzen springs from both of them. 

[Bob Roller]

Car axles are very good steel for internals. Some hood springs are flat coil type and they work good for springs.
 Lawn mower blade are good spring steel. As are hay rake teeth and power window regulator springs from cars. There is a lot of good steel in old cars because the auto industry get the best of the production. Old cars from the 70's has hood springs that were 3/8" round rods. I have forged main springs and frizzen springs from both of them. 

ALL of these materials will add to the labor intensive nature of making a lock and are born either from desperation or a romanticized idea of some kind.

Bob Roller

[Boatman53]

Rolf, I sent you a PM.
Jim

[ddoyle]

Mission accomplished

[eddillon]

Rolf,
Order what you need.  I can send it USPS First Class Int'l to you Once I know the weight of your selection, I can calculate shipping to Norway.  A $#*! of a lot cheaper than UPS.  Might take 14 days to get there but if you are not in a hurry, so what?
Cheers,
Ed

[Rolf]

Rolf,

I mentioned it above but  I'll throw it out there again, These guys have buckets of  small hunks of 1144- and any thing else you might need for 2-3 dollars a pound. I looked it up and a 6 inch long,  3 pound package will cost you 20 bucks from Canada to norway. So what you want/need is available for a staggering 25 dollars to your door

Maybe you should send them an email

dan AT        


Tell Dan you are making locks and that David said they might have more leftovers from the printing press job.

Thanks Ddoyle, I'll email them.

Best regards
Rolf

[ddoyle]

No worries,  I took the contact info out of my post maybe you could do the same. Do not want to abuse their profitless assistance  with too many 5 dollar orders.

If they are out of what you need I can part off a couple tumblers worth of 1144 and provide as much 01 as you want to pay to ship. ( I am rich with 01 but not so rich with 1144 3/4 inch RB)

[helwood]

The last 2 Miquelet Locks I made from anchor chain, for parts other than screws and the springs I made from W1 drill stock.  When I made 2 Girardonies I used Hay rake tine for the mainsprings.  Hank

[Rolf]

I've found a work shop in Norway that uses UHB11 for parts they case harden.
The amercan term for UHB11 is 1145.
This steel contains  C 0.46%   Si 0.2%  Mn 0.7%  and no phosphorus or sulfur.
Here a link to this steel www.uddeholm.com/files/uhb_11-english.pdf

1144 stressproof contians C 0.44%   Mn  1,36%    P 0.04%    S 0.24.
How do these two stells compare for use as tumblers?

Best regards
Rolf

[Bob Roller]

I've found a work shop in Norway that uses UHB11 for parts they case harden.
The amercan term for UHB11 is 1145.
This steel contains  C 0.46%   Si 0.2%  Mn 0.7%  and no phosphorus or sulfur.
Here a link to this steel www.uddeholm.com/files/uhb_11-english.pdf

1144 stressproof contians C 0.44%   Mn  1,36%    P 0.04%    S 0.24.
How do these two stells compare for use as tumblers?

Best regards
Rolf

I case hardened a tumbler from 1144 Stressproof and it shatters like glass. It WILL harden in oil
using common methods. I heat it (tumbler) with a #3 tip connected to a
B"cylinder of acetlyne used widely by plumbers in this area.I take it to an orange heat and quench in hydraulic jack oil. Using a magnet I get the tumbler out with a magnet and polish it and draw it back to a light straw color and let it air cool.I have used this method for over 50 years and the lack of broken and worn tumblers proves the idea works.
1144 Stressproof machines like 12L14 with common tools and drills easily and takes threads with no trouble.

Bob Roller

[Bob Roller]

No worries,  I took the contact info out of my post maybe you could do the same. Do not want to abuse their profitless assistance  with too many 5 dollar orders.

If they are out of what you need I can part off a couple tumblers worth of 1144 and provide as much 01 as you want to pay to ship. ( I am rich with 01 but not so rich with 1144 3/4 inch RB)

1144 round bars that are 3/4" in diameter won't make any tumblers unless for a miniature of some kind.
I use 1.250 (32mm) Stressproof for all my tumblers and turn the diameters as needed. 1.065 will make a
tumbler for the Manton.

Bob Roller

[ddoyle]

Bob, of course your right. I bought 1.0 to copy a Queen Anne LR and Large Siler tumblers. I had used some .75 to practice/learn with and it stuck in my brain. Thanks for being out there!