I think I smell week-old fish

[Naphtali]

I am unfamiliar with patched round ball rifle shooting. In the past I have loaded and shot only conicals. The only patched round balls I have fired were from an original Hawken that was loaded by its owner.

When Gene Gordner finishes the first rifle he's creating for me, I intend to try patched RBs. Recently I received information that has an "odor." Patched round balls can be loaded in rifles to achieve a muzzle velocity of 2300 fps as a theoretical maximum, with 2100 fps as a realistic maximum.

While I am aware of black powder Express cartridges that were factory loaded to achieve higher muzzle velocities than 2300 fps, I have found no documented confirmation of patched RBs achieving anywhere close to the numbers about which I was informed.

Hypothetically, were 2100 fps achievable, what sort of relationship would be necessary between propellant and RB weights? And what sort of barrel length would be required to burn that huge amount of propellant that would almost certainly be necessary?
***
My default thinking is that were that sort of muzzle velocity to be preferred for successfully hunting a class of animal - excluding excessively long shots that should not be made with patched RBs - the hunter would be better served to migrate to a larger bore sized rifle, significantly larger if needed.

Nevertheless, I interested in whether such high muzzle velocities are achievable safely using patched RBs.

[B Staley]

I don't know about all that but I know PRB killed a lot of criters over the years.

[EC121]

Probably depends on the caliber.

[smylee grouch]

I don't have my note book handy but I think I was getting 2300 out of my 40 with about 60 gr. of 3f swiss.

[bgf]

Sorry, I thought this was going to be an honest thread about Ballistol !

You get whatever velocity you can depending on barrel, projectile and propellant, but at a certain point accuracy suffers, usually.

[longcruise]

The smaller the caliber, the higher the velocity potential.  I have had my .50 at just a hair under 2000.  I don't remember the load, but it was a TC .50 Hawken and the powder was Goex 2f.

In a practical sense, there is not much point in loading that hot.  My deer this past season was 75. or 80 yards, .50 round ball over 60 gr of 3f.  Double lung and an exit hole.

[OldMtnMan]

I've killed elk with a .54 PRB going only 1700 fps.

If you want high fps shoot a .270.

[Hungry Horse]

 Many years ago, when I hunted with a .50 cal. Tryon, I was hunting not far from the local gun club range. I got back to my truck, and hearing someone shooting on the range, decided to just take the cap off of the nipple, and go over there to empty my gun,and investigate. I found one of our members testing hand loads in a bolt action 30-30, over a chronograph. I had never seen one in person, and was intrigued. The shooter asked if I wanted to find out how fast my hunting load was, and I jumped at the chance. I was shooting 85 grains of 2f Goex under a patched .490 round ball. I shot three shots and they all ran right at 1600 fps.

  Hungry Horse

[smylee grouch]

Alot of times you will not get your most accurate load until you get your velocity up towards the top end. Your bullet drop should be less also with the shorter time of flight so shoot and take notes would probably be your best option. A pure lead round ball will upset more the faster it goes causing more shock but some times less penetration.

[OldMtnMan]

Alot of times you will not get your most accurate load until you get your velocity up towards the top end. Your bullet drop should be less also with the shorter time of flight so shoot and take notes would probably be your best option. A pure lead round ball will upset more the faster it goes causing more shock but some times less penetration.

That's the problem with high fps and the round ball. Penetration.

[Daryl]

I'm glad to hear you are going to get a round ball rifle.

High velocity for a small bore, ie: .40, I found I had to develop with the super slippery Lehigh Valley Lube. That velocity I chronographed was 2,260fps using 65.0gr. 3F powder. In order to match that accuracy with 2F, I had to increase the powder charge to 75gr. of GOEX 2F.  That load not only duplicated the 3F's accuracy, but the velocity as well.  Note, I was using a .398" ball in a Goodoien barrel, with a .0235" thick patch.

Now, the same speeds (2,260fps) and accuracy was obtained in my GM .45 barrel,  same lube, .445" ball and using 75.0gr. 3f and 85.0gr. 2F, both GOEX powder, with a 10 ounce denim patch, I measured at .0225" with my calipers, compressed as hard as I could.

2,260fps is certainly high velocity for a patched round ball. With velocity comes pressure.  Equal velocity = Equal pressure

My .69 also produces what I call high velocity - 1,550fps with a 482gr. round ball, .030" patch. The charge required is 165gr. GOEX 2F.  The pressure generated is very much LESS than the small bore loads listed above, but that is only part of the story - the rest if the story here, is called recoil, being many times more than the .40 or .45 produce.  The .69 is also much more accurate, especially at 100 to 300yards.

[bigsmoke]

Naphtali,
Knowing you are going with a .72 caliber, I doubt if .40 caliber loads really matter much.
Getting closer to your size rifle, I did some chrono work with my .62 at one time.  Loading 200 grains of GOEX Ffg gave me 1,990 or so with a .610 ball, 20 ga. cushion wad and .015 greased patch.  Using Pyrodex Select, it gave out 2,004 fps, everything else the same.  That was with a .36" barrel.  Recoil was noticeable but not excessive.
John

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

  Note, I was using a .378" ball in a Goodoien barrel, with a .0235" thick patch.


Are you sure about the ball diameter, Daryl?

[bob in the woods]

In my experience, 2000 fps is pretty doable in the smaller bores. My .40 will do that with  60 gr FFg
My usual load in my .54 is just shy of that i.e. 1900 +  [ for hunting ]
Having said that, the reason for seeking the higher velocity is for a flatter trajectory.   Any decent load with round balls is lethal.  My .62 using a .610 ball at around 1400 fps has gone clean through deer and black bears.
In my 10 bore shooting a .735 ball,  I think that I'm getting maybe 1200 fps or less [ 140 gr FFg ] but it gone clean through everything  I've shot with it including a 400 pound black bear. 

[Daryl]

  Note, I was using a .378" ball in a Goodoien barrel, with a .0235" thick patch.


Are you sure about the ball diameter, Daryl?

tks Taylor - it was a .398" ball from the .395" Lyman mould - yes- dead soft. Post ammended.

[Dphariss]

I am unfamiliar with patched round ball rifle shooting. In the past I have loaded and shot only conicals. The only patched round balls I have fired were from an original Hawken that was loaded by its owner.

When Gene Gordner finishes the first rifle he's creating for me, I intend to try patched RBs. Recently I received information that has an "odor." Patched round balls can be loaded in rifles to achieve a muzzle velocity of 2300 fps as a theoretical maximum, with 2100 fps as a realistic maximum.

While I am aware of black powder Express cartridges that were factory loaded to achieve higher muzzle velocities than 2300 fps, I have found no documented confirmation of patched RBs achieving anywhere close to the numbers about which I was informed.

Hypothetically, were 2100 fps achievable, what sort of relationship would be necessary between propellant and RB weights? And what sort of barrel length would be required to burn that huge amount of propellant that would almost certainly be necessary?
***
My default thinking is that were that sort of muzzle velocity to be preferred for successfully hunting a class of animal - excluding excessively long shots that should not be made with patched RBs - the hunter would be better served to migrate to a larger bore sized rifle, significantly larger if needed.

Nevertheless, I interested in whether such high muzzle velocities are achievable safely using patched RBs.

You need to look at other sources. First off remember that comparing a brass suppository rifles to ML rifles in apples and oranges. The ignition efficiency much different and those using a BN case burn the powder differently.  It hard to move a bullet this fast with BP. The round ball has very little inertia and moves away from the breech easily and this makes it less efficient. I would also point out the very few if any Express rifles made 2300 fps. The 303 British was originally a BP cartridge and used a compressed pellet of powder to get the charge weight up. It produced about 1800-1850.  Most BP Express rifles did 1600-1800 max. If you are seeing velocities over 2300 in print you may be looking at "Nitro for Black" loadings.  There is a LOT of BS concerning BP on the WWW. I suggest Lyman's first edition Blackpowder Loading Manual and maybe John Taylor's "African Rifles and Cartridges" for velocity info.
Once past about 2000 fps most MLs shooting round balls require a lot more powder to gain significantly more velocity. IE its a waste of time and will not really increase killing power if that is your goal.  This is done with ball diameter and a velocity that gives a decent trajectory to 130-150 yards.
Velocities attributed to a BP Express cartridge is not of much use when shooting a ML.
Dan

[SCLoyalist]

The old Lyman Black Powder manual gives some load data for pushing RB over 2000 fps:
For 40 caliber: 43" barrel, 65 gr or more of 3Fg
For 45 caliber, 28" barrel, 100gr or more of 3Fg  ( 100gr, 2071fps;  140 gr 2167fps - not much velocity increase for a significant powder increase)
For 45 caliber, 32" barrel , 75 gr or more of 3Fg

For 50 caliber, 28" barrel, 120 gr or more 3Fg
For 54 cal, 30" barrel,  150 gr or more3Fg
For 58 caliber, 190gr of 2F only took the velocity up into the 1700 fps range

These loads weren't tested for accuracy, just muzzle velocity. 

[Mike Brooks]

In my book, and remember I wrote it so take this as you will. It's mass that kills, not speed. You folks out west like a real fast flat shooting load, and I understand that and all the reasons for it. But, in my hunting experience here in the midwest I have found that I could shoot a smooth bored 20ga with a .600 bare ball, no patch with 60gr 2ff chrono'd at 800 er other FPS and smash deer flat. Never failed to not pass all the way through the deer. Magnum loads aren't always needed for large caliber guns, especially if you're shooting 75 yards or less where the angle of the dangle isn't an issue.
Now, I have killed deer with smaller calibers, .45's and 50's  but was less likely to pass all the way through. Of course I didn't magnum load those either. Beasties aren't hard to kill with MLs, shot placement is the real key to success, not huge volumes of powder.

[Bob Roller]

In my book, and remember I wrote it so take this as you will. It's mass that kills, not speed. You folks out west like a real fast flat shooting load, and I understand that and all the reasons for it. But, in my hunting experience here in the midwest I have found that I could shoot a smooth bored 20ga with a .600 bare ball, no patch with 60gr 2ff chrono'd at 800 er other FPS and smash deer flat. Never failed to not pass all the way through the deer. Magnum loads aren't always needed for large caliber guns, especially if you're shooting 75 yards or less where the angle of the dangle isn't an issue.
Now, I have killed deer with smaller calibers, .45's and 50's  but was less likely to pass all the way through. Of course I didn't magnum load those either. Beasties aren't hard to kill with MLs, shot placement is the real key to success, not huge volumes of powder.

There was a family in Randolph County WV that kept meat in the skillet year around with a 25-20 repeater including deer.
They wouldn't have known what to do with any magnum rifles or pistols.

Bob Roller

[Hungry Horse]

 Unless big game shot with a muzzleloader, is shot a extremely close range, or with crazy big powder charges, the round ball rarely exits the animal. This means all the kinetic energy is transferred to the game animal. That, combined with the soft lead ball expanding, and creating a large wound channel, usually insures a clean kill. As with any hunting scenario, you have to shoot them in the right end. All the velocity in the world won't pay off if you shoot the animal in the butt.

   Hungry Horse

[Dphariss]

As some have already pointed out. Speed's primary advantage is really trajectory so long as it provides adequate penetration.  HOWEVER, very few rifles are going to shoot well with low velocity loads. My experience with a 50 cal smooth rifle says the same for the SB. Best load with this smooth rifle, 3-4 inches for 5 shots at 60 yards, was 100 grains of ff.  So I have seen too many people shooting light powder charges in rifles shoot groups like shotgun patterns at 60 yards in matches (why waste the powder of paper  ). Increasing the load to 1800 fps or so cut the groups to 1/3 the previous size, good enough to hunt with and perhaps win some shots in the match....
So far as shooting deer at 25 yards? Maybe from a blind or tree stand? If all my shots were this close I would be tempted to shoot a pistol.
Its worked for me before.  I know that a 45 RB with 45 grains of FFF from a 36 inch barrel will kill deer very well at 50-60 yards.
I know a 50 caliber rb at 800 fps (chronographed) at the muzzle will shoot through a Mule Deer's chest to the far side hide on a diagonal. I know the same load at 25 +- yards will shoot through an Antelope's chest and throw a large plume of dirt in the Sage beyond. But if hunting Elk, Bison or Moose I am going to want more velocity and preferably a larger ball.  Deer are very "soft" targets in reality so something what works great on them may be a crippler of game on larger species.

So DO LOAD DEVELOPMENT. If hunting use a ball of suitable size for the game.  Big critters need heavier gauge round balls. Remember that impact energy is not a gauge of killing power in BP arms. The velocity is too low in most cases for the kind of energy transfer exhibited by modern expanding bullets driven at gray powder velocities.
Bottom line DON'T worry about speed so much. In rifles, and from reports from many SB shooters the ACCURATE load will almost surely be a good hunting load for the game the ball is sized for.  At BP velocities, in general, the round balls of equal WEIGHT is a better killer/stopper than a conical at the ranges people shoot MLs for hunting. This has been pointed out for a very long time. Since the advent of the elongated bullet.

Dan

[hanshi]

I've owned a chronograph for around 20 years and have use it quite a bit.  My 38" barreled .40 likes 60 grains of 3F as a top load and is wonderfully accurate at 100 yards.  This load moves at something around 1950fps.  I didn't load for this velocity; I simply worked up an accurate load and later chronographed it.  A .50 Va rifle, 42" barrel, that sadly I no longer own easily gave right at 2100fps.  IMHO loading for max velocity is a bit absurd.  In my .45, 36" bbl, 60 grains of 3F gives 1700fps and 70 grains breaks 1800; 80grns approaches 2000fps.  A .50, 38" bbl, gives about 1550fps with 60 grains of 3F while 70grns of the same powder yields 1700+fps.

Fact is I like the most accurate load for hunting which rarely, though occasionally, is a hot load.  In a .45 or .50 a velocity between 1500fps and 1800fps is a deer killer up to 100 yards or farther.  My ammo is a .440" ball in .45 and a .490" ball in the .50.  If I went to a larger ball I'd no doubt get higher velocities; but what's the point.  The loads i shoot are quite snug with their .024" patches.  Work up your most accurate load and you'll be loaded for success.  Only chronograph it AFTERWARDS.

[Mike Brooks]

Well, just let me add this.....In my most recent dabblings I have  found a rifle will have several "nodes" of accuracy as you increase a powder load. Say for a .50 you may find your first accurate load around 55 to 60gr then the group will go all to $#*! untill you get to something like 80 to 95gr and it will start to group again then fall apart after 95gr but reach yet another accurate load at lets say 120gr or more. (all hypothetical loadings)I guess you have to decide which "node" you want to shoot. If I lived where Dan does out west I'd chose the higher nodes and shoot flatter and farther as that is what is required. Or, if I regularly shot in longish range competition I would shoot the bigger loads as well. But I almost always go with the lower accuracy loads here in Iowa, as competition is 100 yards or less and a real long shot on deer is 75 yards.
Learned all this "node" stuff from modern long range tactical shooters shooting 800 to 1000 yards plus. It works for MLs as well....to my amazement actually....

[Naphtali]

Mike:

Dan lives well east of the Divide. I live west.

[oldtravler61]

Mike hit the nail on the head. Shot placement means everything. NUMBER two is tracking skill. Especially when you have only one hole an not a pass through. Bigger is only better if you can shoot accurately with it.