Sam Hawken butt plate.

[louieparker]

I have been doing some work on a S. Hawken rifle. This is one of the rifles with hand made hardware.  After removing the butt plate I noticed something that I thought was interesting. The inside of the butt plate heel was filled with metal shavings . They were about 1/8 inch wide and some were rolled up like a clock spring and just piled in the cavity. Then brass was added and the two piece BP was brazed together. The cuttings are not submerged in brass, only enough to attach them and the plate together. I assumed this was to strengthen the joint ?  Not something that I recall seeing before. For those interested that butt plate is 4 15/16 inches heel to toe......LP

[smylee grouch]

Hi Louie: Was that butt plate square in the inside corner or radius shaped?

[Don Stith]

Louie
 You would have seen several of those if you had spent more time at Keiths

[Dennis Glazener]

They were about 1/8 inch wide and some were rolled up like a clock spring and just piled in the cavity. Then brass was added and the two piece BP was brazed together. The cuttings are not submerged in brass, only enough to attach them and the plate together.

Louie,
Curious if I am seeing this correctly. I assume the metal pieces/curls etc were iron/steel. When the brass was added it melted, ran down to the buttplate top extension/heel joint and brazed as normal. The iron/steel pieces were also brazed together and to the inside of the buttplate and acted as re-enforcement for the joint?
Dennis

[louieparker]

Smylee  the inside is just bent on a radius.
 
Don, I would have spent more time at Keith's but my bills kept coming in.. My wife felt rather strongly that I should say home and work.
Are you saying that all the hand made plates had the cuttings added? I may have seen it and paid no attention but I sure don't recall it.

Dennis they are iron. They look like scraps from cutting a groove in say a trigger bar.  You have the right idea on the brazing.   LP

[Don Stith]

I didn't have a wife at that time. I learned a long time ago to not say anything was always done a certain way.  Lets just say it was not uncommon. The one I got most excited about was one of the early cast buttplates on a Hawken
 It had been patterned from one like you have. You could see the impressions from the pieces of metal in the corner recess. Not everybody got to dismantle those things.

[Dave B]

To double check Smiley's question. Was the surface junction (portion touching the wood) of the edge of the return and the back portion of the butt plate a radius or did they meet squarely so the wood inlet to the butt plate in that joint at the inner corner was a radius or was it squared off?

[smylee grouch]

Thanks Dave for a better explanation of the question. I have read that the butts with the curve or radius shape were the early type and the square shape came later as in cast plates. There are probably exceptions to that I'm sure. I've said it before but again I don't think we should never say never or always when dealing with such things. This brings up another question, Louie, do you think the S Hawken is an early one or latter one. Thanks again   Smylee

[louieparker]

Dave & Smylee
I did misunderstand the question.. You are referring to where the two pieces come together as seen on the side of the stock.. Yes that is a radius .  The ones with a squared intersection are the very late cast guards. The evolution of the guard was hand forged with a radius, cast with a radius and cast with the squared junction. But that is not to say a forged guard could never be found on a late rifle. As Don says, never say never . Louie 

[louieparker]

Smylee I missed your question about early or late. I think its early for a Sam Hawken.  Louie

[Hungry Horse]

Louie;

  I have a hand forged Tennessee buttplate that is done the same way. I have no provenance on this buttplate since I got it as simple a collection of parts. This may have been pretty common practice when building a forged buttplate.

   Hungry Horse

[Jim Kibler]

Interesting.  I wonder if this adds anything to the strength of the joint.  My gut feel is that it would benefit very little.  Also, how strong does this joint really need to be?  Can't ever recall seeing one broken there, but it's not something I look for either.  Braze alone should be beyond sufficient.  It's always neat to see how things were done, though.

Jim

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

If the metal is on the thin side, adding the chips and braze would help prevent denting in , on a part of the rifle that gets abused.

[Joe S.]

seeing how the chips are not submerged in the brass but merely attached it doesn't seem to be a great way of making an area stronger.I would think if they where going for strength they would have built the area up in layers.Do you think maybe it was an early attempt at heat dispensation?less chance of the thinner parts from warping or is my thinking warped

[John Archer]

It doesn't seem to me to be something done intentionally. The coiled scraps of iron/steel could have been in the brass/spelter used for brazing...perhaps scraps from a lathe bed or drill press. Brass is heavier than iron and when it melts would the iron scraps float to the top? It would be an interesting experiment...now I'll have to try it.

John

[smylee grouch]

Thanks for that info Louie, I thought it might be an early Sam Hawken gun. I have made a few two piece butt plates but used silver solder after I had them riveted together.

[louieparker]

Finding this on a Tenn. butt plate is interesting. I have never brazed a butt plate in a forge.  But is there any way those cuttings could have been used to aid in keeping the two pieces aligned while brazing ?

As my dad would have said, " I tell you right now, its a mystery ! "Louie