Author Topic: Euroarms 1803 Harpers Ferry  (Read 22272 times)

Offline hatman

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Euroarms 1803 Harpers Ferry
« on: May 25, 2016, 08:58:24 PM »
New poster here.
I've recently become smitten with flintlocks and since January I've purchased 3 custom rifles with my most prized a Ron Luckenbill beauty.

Being a history buff, and living in the PNW I'm interested in getting a rifle that closely matches a Lewis and Clark flintlock.
Although not without controversy the 1803 Harpers Ferry seems to be a reasonable facsimile.

I'm looking online at a Dixie Gun Works 1803 (which I believe is made by EuroArms).
I've tried researching the quality of Euroarms flintlocks but I'm coming up with almost nothing.
I'm reluctant to purchase without some idea of their reputation.
Is anyone familiar with EuroArms?
Thanks.

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Euroarms 1803 Harpers Ferry
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2016, 10:10:37 PM »
I wouldn't buy one.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

nosrettap1958

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Re: Euroarms 1803 Harpers Ferry
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2016, 01:59:24 AM »
I wouldn't either. Percussion maybe, but not their flintlocks.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2016, 02:00:23 AM by crawdad »

Offline hatman

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Re: Euroarms 1803 Harpers Ferry
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2016, 03:15:33 AM »
OK guys, I appreciate that feedback.

nosrettap1958

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« Last Edit: May 26, 2016, 04:36:30 AM by crawdad »

Offline hatman

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Re: Euroarms 1803 Harpers Ferry
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2016, 08:45:16 AM »
Thanks crawdad, but I'm not interested in a kit.  I have neither the skill nor the time.
Looks like great parts, though.
My Luckenbill rifle has a swamped Colerain barrel.

nosrettap1958

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Re: Euroarms 1803 Harpers Ferry
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2016, 03:49:09 PM »
Thanks crawdad, but I'm not interested in a kit.  I have neither the skill nor the time.
Looks like great parts, though.
My Luckenbill rifle has a swamped Colerain barrel.

I hear ya Brother.
I'm in the same boat.


I'm not familiar with that maker. 

Offline Bill Madden

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Re: Euroarms 1803 Harpers Ferry
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2016, 03:52:04 PM »
Check out Neil Keyes in Blanchard Oklahoma. His bio and contact information can be found on the CLA site. Bill

Offline Longknife

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Ed Hamberg

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Euroarms 1803 Harpers Ferry
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2016, 05:46:06 PM »
Moot point anyway. There is much controversy over which gun L&C carried. Many doubt the 1803 1/2 stock existed in time for the journey. Many believe a fullstock model was carried, much like the earlier Indian wars contract rifle.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Longknife

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Re: Euroarms 1803 Harpers Ferry
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2016, 06:31:32 PM »

One just needs to needs to read the journals and decide for them selves on which firearm was taken on the expedition. Here are just two of the many "short rifle" quotes penned by Capt. Lewis.

April 12th 1806... While portaging the Great Falls...

"We caused all the men who had short rifles to carry them, in order to be prepared for the natives should they make any attempts to rob or injure them"

August 11th 1806... On the accidental shooting of Lewis by Cruzat

  " The ball had lodged in my breeches which I knew to be the ball of the short rifles such as that he had",
« Last Edit: May 26, 2016, 06:40:09 PM by Longknife »
Ed Hamberg

Offline lexington1

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Re: Euroarms 1803 Harpers Ferry
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2016, 07:39:24 PM »
I'm not a big fan of any of the Italian flintlocks as it seems like their parts are usually just hardened on the surface. They might work well when new (or maybe not) but when the surface hardening wears they can be a lot of trouble to get working properly. I've seen a few of these where the lock was replaced rather than tinkering with the old one. Also the repo 1803's seem to be kind of clunky compared to the originals. If I wanted one I would definitely have one that was built like an original. The one that Mike T has for sale looks nice....

Offline Bill Paton

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Re: Euroarms 1803 Harpers Ferry
« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2016, 08:31:07 PM »
I agree with Longknife about the Corps of Discovery using specifically “short rifles”. The military part of the Corps also had muskets as documented in the journals.

It is true that the fully developed Harpers Ferry 1803 rifle was not developed until December, 1803 at the earliest, well documented in the correspondence of the day. Lewis had his rifles shipped west in the summer of 1803, so they weren’t fully developed HF 1803’s. However the govt ordered 4000 of that first 33” barrel rendition, and ultimately paid for 4015. The rifle that Ernie Cowan dissected (found in a Saint Louis antique shop many years ago in percussion with patch box inlet covered with a scab of wood and serial number 15 on the barrel) has all the earmarks of a prototype HF 1803 rifle with distinct differences from the post-December, 1803 production.

The argument that Lewis took 15 gun slings from Harpers Ferry for his supposed “full stocked contract rifles” ignores the fact that he would have wanted replacement slings for the muskets that also accompanied the expedition.

I believe the 15 short rifles prominently mentioned in the L and C journals were the 15 prototypes made by HF as they were developing the “Model 1803 Rifle”, were the extra 15 paid for above and beyond the 4000 fully developed 1803’s, and that one has been found and well documented by Ernie Cowan.

The Lewis air rifle has also been located and well documented and identified. Fun history!

Bill Paton
Kentucky double rifle student
wapaton.sr@gmail.com

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Euroarms 1803 Harpers Ferry
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2016, 10:10:11 PM »
I got no dog in this fight, just reporting what I have heard. I do know I got paid to build a pot full of full stocked L&C guns for the  Bicentennial. Looked just like the 1792 contract rifle with an 1803 lock and patchbox.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Don Stith

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Re: Euroarms 1803 Harpers Ferry
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2016, 01:01:16 AM »
Bill
 I can't find anywhere that it says there were 15 short rifles.  Want to send me a copy of that quote?

Offline hatman

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Re: Euroarms 1803 Harpers Ferry
« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2016, 02:42:52 AM »
Here ya go!

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=40164.0

Thanks Longknife.
I really like the looks of that one.
Unfortunately it's a tad bit above my price point.

Offline Joey R

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Re: Euroarms 1803 Harpers Ferry
« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2016, 05:47:37 AM »
I have one of Mike's 1792 contract rifles.
Joey.....Don’t ever ever ever give up! Winston Churchill

nosrettap1958

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Re: Euroarms 1803 Harpers Ferry
« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2016, 03:26:03 PM »
The thing is and what I'm looking at is Hatman has 3 custom rifles and now wants a Euroarms. You usually start with an Euroarms, learning the ins and outs of firing a substandard lock then move up to a custom.  Go buy one but it won't be in the same league as those customs.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2016, 03:27:29 PM by crawdad »

Offline Don Stith

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Re: Euroarms 1803 Harpers Ferry
« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2016, 08:28:24 PM »
You can probably buy an original 1803 for less money than a custom copy.  The bottom has fallen out of the market for them
 I recently sold three originals for $2500 total. One was still flint and the others had been converted to percussion. About made me cry
 I had way more than that in them and had owned them for 20 years.

Offline hatman

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Re: Euroarms 1803 Harpers Ferry
« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2016, 11:54:49 PM »
The thing is and what I'm looking at is Hatman has 3 custom rifles and now wants a Euroarms. You usually start with an Euroarms, learning the ins and outs of firing a substandard lock then move up to a custom.  Go buy one but it won't be in the same league as those customs.

You're right crawdad, it really is backwards.
However, it's not that I was wanting a Euroarms rifle, but I would like someday to have a Lewis and Clark-like rifle. 
If Euroarms had a reputation for quality I might have taken the chance for a price that was a 1/3 of what I paid for my customs.
Doesn't appear that to be the case so I'm back looking for a quality L and C for a decent price.

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Euroarms 1803 Harpers Ferry
« Reply #20 on: May 29, 2016, 12:10:06 AM »
You can probably buy an original 1803 for less money than a custom copy.  The bottom has fallen out of the market for them
 I recently sold three originals for $2500 total. One was still flint and the others had been converted to percussion. About made me cry
 I had way more than that in them and had owned them for 20 years.

OUCHKABIBBLE!  :'(
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

OldSchool

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Re: Euroarms 1803 Harpers Ferry
« Reply #21 on: May 29, 2016, 04:37:20 AM »
hatman...many of these replies can best be understood if you look to the ceiling, and put on your best euro-trash accent. Got it?

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Euroarms 1803 Harpers Ferry
« Reply #22 on: May 29, 2016, 04:20:03 PM »
hatman...many of these replies can best be understood if you look to the ceiling, and put on your best euro-trash accent. Got it?
That went right over my head.....I must be "Euro-trash"...sure wish I knew what that was, might be something to be proud of. ;D So, who are you with your big ten posts? I love it when guys sling mud but are to afraid to use their name on screen. ::)
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Longknife

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Re: Euroarms 1803 Harpers Ferry
« Reply #23 on: May 29, 2016, 04:37:06 PM »
You can probably buy an original 1803 for less money than a custom copy.  The bottom has fallen out of the market for them
 I recently sold three originals for $2500 total. One was still flint and the others had been converted to percussion. About made me cry
 I had way more than that in them and had owned them for 20 years.


I've been looking for a type 1 HF rifle in orig. flint for some time and every time one comes to auction some one else wants it was worse than me!!!!







hatman...many of these replies can best be understood if you look to the ceiling, and put on your best euro-trash accent. Got it?
That went right over my head.....I must be "Euro-trash"...sure wish I knew what that was, might be something to be proud of. ;D So, who are you with your big ten posts? I love it when guys sling mud but are to afraid to use their name on screen. ::)

Mike , I just ignore the useless remarks.....
« Last Edit: May 29, 2016, 04:38:24 PM by Longknife »
Ed Hamberg

Offline Don Stith

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Re: Euroarms 1803 Harpers Ferry
« Reply #24 on: May 29, 2016, 04:54:14 PM »
Went to Euroarms website to see what their interpretation looks like. Wrong barrel length.Wrong lock style,closer to the post 1814 model. Stock architecture is bad.  Shape of buttplate and trigger guard is off. What more would you like to know?