Coconut Oil - bad experience

[tpr-tru]

Today I experimented with coconut oil.  Blue pillow tick-.018",  .36 cal.,  45 gr. 3f Goex.  Strip patching lubed 2 days  previous.   No excess lube on patch, but this is a very slick lube.   Load and shoot, no wipe between.  On the tenth loading the patched ball stopped hard about 4" from muzzle.  There was no moving it.  Ball was pulled and circumference was noted with shiny black tar like hard substance.  Powder blown out and water patched, with black crud, like I have never seen before.  After 10 wet patches and no change in patch from deep shiny black, I switched to 91% alcohol.  After 25 patches no change.  At home same thing with normal cleaning.  Switched to mineral spirits and began to clean up.  Finished up with finest Scotch Brite/mineral spirits and got a clean bore.  Dried out, then cleaned normal and feel comfortable the bore is as clean as normal.   This ends my coconut oil use.   

[Maven]

And I just finished lubing several dozen patches with it!   I intend to damp swab the bore after every other shot, or as often needed though.  Btw, Stumpy's Moose Snot, which you make yourself works rather well, but you have to still have to swab the bore.

[sqrldog]

Hmmm 9 shots no problem tenth shot ring of fouling 4" from the muzzle could it have been short started and shot without seating the ball on the powder?

[Mad Monk]

Today I experimented with coconut oil.  Blue pillow tick-.018",  .36 cal.,  45 gr. 3f Goex.  Strip patching lubed 2 days  previous.   No excess lube on patch, but this is a very slick lube.   Load and shoot, no wipe between.  On the tenth loading the patched ball stopped hard about 4" from muzzle.  There was no moving it.  Ball was pulled and circumference was noted with shiny black tar like hard substance.  Powder blown out and water patched, with black crud, like I have never seen before.  After 10 wet patches and no change in patch from deep shiny black, I switched to 91% alcohol.  After 25 patches no change.  At home same thing with normal cleaning.  Switched to mineral spirits and began to clean up.  Finished up with finest Scotch Brite/mineral spirits and got a clean bore.  Dried out, then cleaned normal and feel comfortable the bore is as clean as normal.   This ends my coconut oil use.   

A BIG question here.  What was the air temperature at the time you were shooting?  The description of a shiny tar-like hard substance would relate to shooting the black powder at a high temperature.  Say 80 to 100 degrees F.

[Tim Crosby]

 Coconut Oil...Really! That's one I never heard of. I must be missing something...Fish oil can't be far away.

   Tim C.

[Mad Monk]

Coconut Oil...Really! That's one I never heard of. I must be missing something...Fish oil can't be far away.

   Tim C.

While you work on that my snake oil lube project continues.

[Maven]

Tim, Look at this thread, starting with post #6:  http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=40869.0

[Joe Schell]

I've been using coconut oil for the last couple years with very good results. I wonder if there's different grades of it ? The stuff l have has never caused any crud buildup or cleaning problems.

[tpr-tru]

Sqrldog,  an emphatic NO.   

Mad Monk,  I believe you are on the money (naturally),  temperature about 85 degrees and about 20 minutes between firing the ninth and loading the tenth.   Thanks for your input.   I've never had this type fouling with any water,  water base concoction, oils (bear, mink, neatsfoot, olive oil) or some greases (crisco, water pump etc.). 

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I do not think you can blame the lubricant.  A span of 20 minutes between loading is your problem.  I don't use coconut oil 9just haven't done it yet) and I don't wipe between shots...  but I would never expect to have clear sailing with a twenty minute interval, no matter the lube.

[Curt Lyles]

tpr-tru
  
  what type of powder and lube do you normally use ,that might shed a little more light on your problem.But i think Taylor might be right. I know some folks dont like to wipe the barrels while shooting but thats not a problem for me ,if it saves me from havin trouble Im all for it.I understand why some dont wont to and Im fine with that'

  humm  FISH OIL SNAKE OIL hUMM

[Don Steele]

Based on my personal experience with no-wiping protocol, I'm thinking Taylor and Curt got it right.
In my experience, using a couple of different liquid lubes, when I maintain a steady rhythm of loading-shooting-loading...etc., without undue delays I have no problems, and get good results.
That said...when I'm interrupted after several shots have been fired...perhaps by someone arriving at the range wanting to chat...I have found that regardless of how easy all my previous shots were loading, I have a much more difficult time reloading again when I get back to shooting.
With that in mind, when an interruption occurs I have adopted a practice of wiping the bore with a couple of patches moistened with my liquid lube  then a dry patch, before resuming.
   

[Mauser06]

I've never used coconut oil either....but I do a bit of shooting in the summer when it's hot and humid...I never equated the temperature... always blamed the humidity and black powder residues hydroscopic nature to draw moisture.

[Tim Crosby]

Tim, Look at this thread, starting with post #6:  http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=40869.0

 I read it, Thanks for the insight. I think it goes back to what works best for you, as in if you have something that works and your happy with it why change. I also strongly believe that the weather in the area your in makes a difference in lubes, high to low temperatures and high to low humidity and combinations there of. I have been using Windshield Washing Fluid, the Blue stuff, for years and it has worked well for me. I also use it to clean up with and it does not freeze.

  Tim C.

[Joe S.]

Fish oil,LOL,my rifles cholesterol level dropped sixty points

[Dewey]

While you work on that my snake oil lube project continues.

 

Monk, if you make it, they will buy it, lol !!!   

I will stick with spit or Mink oil in cold weather, myself.

[Mad Monk]

While you work on that my snake oil lube project continues.

 

Monk, if you make it, they will buy it, lol !!!   

I will stick with spit or Mink oil in cold weather, myself.

That was something of a private joke from the past.
I was asked to look at the Diamonback black powder when it first arrived here.  So I looked into the company set up to import it and found that this Diamondback outfit was a subsidiary of Copperhead chemical Company.  It was clear to me that only snake oil  would be a suitable lube for use with that powder.

But then after an initial contact with their person in Canada I quickly exited that project.

With their first container I had been invited to attend a test shooting of the powder.  At the storage facility near Tamaqua, PA about 40 miles from here.  The day of testing saw near freezing temperatures, high winds and snow squalls moving through the area.  I was told that I was welcome to sit there and watch some guy from Texas shoot the powder.  But under no circumstances was I to say anything or touch anything.  So I graciously declined the invitation.  Uh-Hu.  Sitting on a bench freezing to death with snow building up on my  shoulders.  Sounded like my old after Christmas flintlock deer hunts in Tioga County without the beer and pretzels!

[longcruise]

I've never used coconut oil either....but I do a bit of shooting in the summer when it's hot and humid...I never equated the temperature... always blamed the humidity and black powder residues hydroscopic nature to draw moisture.

I've never had a problem with high temperature unless the humidity is way low.  Regardless of humidity, I can shoot all day without wiping if using spit or water and dishsoap.  With any of the grease lubes I have to wipe between shots regardless of the weather.

There is some coconut oil on the shelf and I'll give it a try next time out with a report to follow.

[wattlebuster]

If i lived in a cooler climate i would give it a try but here in Hotabama in would stay a liquid mess 9 months out of the yr

[Mad Monk]

I've never used coconut oil either....but I do a bit of shooting in the summer when it's hot and humid...I never equated the temperature... always blamed the humidity and black powder residues hydroscopic nature to draw moisture.

I've never had a problem with high temperature unless the humidity is way low.  Regardless of humidity, I can shoot all day without wiping if using spit or water and dishsoap.  With any of the grease lubes I have to wipe between shots regardless of the weather.

There is some coconut oil on the shelf and I'll give it a try next time out with a report to follow.

In the years of shooting with different lubes I saw something.

Black powder bore fouling varies in how hygroscopic it is depending on the level of humidity in the air.  Below about 30% RH the residue is non-hygroscopic and will actually give any moisture in it back to the surrounding air.  Then as the RH goes above 30% the residue becomes hygroscopic and picks up moisture from the air.  When the RH gets up around 80 to 90% the residue becomes deliquescent and will pick up enough moisture to become semi-liquid or an actual wet film.

The bp residue is comprised mainly of potassium carbonate and potassium sulfate.  Sometimes 3 parts of carbonate to one part of sulfate.  Other times 4 parts of carbonate to one part of sulfate.  The potassium carbonate is highly soluble in water.  How fast it dissolves into a wet cleaning patch depends on the particle size of the residue.  Very fine particle size and the potassium carbonate dissolves into the water in the patch almost instantaneously.  When heat backed into larger masses of fused particles it takes longer and some mechanical action to get it to dissolve into the patch.

How fast and how well the wet patch works will be effected by the lube being used.  If the lube is a water activated soap it helps dissolve the fouling particles and helps to trap the less soluble particles into the weave of the cleaning patch fabric.
But when you use an oil or grease lube you may see it prevent to fouling from being dissolved rapidly.  So you need something that dissolves the fouling and removes the lube from the bore surfaces.  Adding the oil or grease to the residue has the effect of making it somewhat water  proof.  The residue is moderately alkaline.  Potassium carbonate, or potash, was often to to make "soft soaps" from animal or plant oils and fats.  But when you get into the oil or grease lubes that use a petroleum based product the conversion to a soap just is not possible.

[JBJ]

Monk, thank you!Finally and explanation of BP residues and their interaction with vegatable/animal and petroluem based lubes that made sense to this old man.
J.B.

[Mad Monk]

Monk, thank you!Finally and explanation of BP residues and their interaction with vegatable/animal and petroluem based lubes that made sense to this old man.
J.B.

Some more sense is then called for.
Mainly the thing about petroleum based lubes in black powder guns.

If you take a napthenic type crude oil and add sulfur to it then het it for a few hours get end up with asphalt.  Road tar.  As in the sulfur found in black powder.
Now if you take a petroleum wax, such as Vaseline or parrafin wax it will not form asphalt when subjected to heat and sulfur.  But lubricating oils and greases will form asphalt films in the bore when you shoot them in a black powder gun.  The asphalt film forms, thickens and extends up the bore with each firing of the gun.  As long as the barrel is hot the asphalt will be very soft and plastic or nearly a liquid film.  But when cooled it about the same as road or roofing tar.  A point is reached where you have difficulty seating the ball on the charge and then a point is reached where you can't seat the ball on the charge.  You could be faced with a patched ball a few inches off the charge and mired in asphalt that acts like an adhesive.  Thought to have been a major cause of the ML barrel blow ups back in the 1970s and 1980s.  We had to clean the bore with turpentine, mineral spirits or automobile tar remover.

[Pete G.]

The humidity explanation helps me understand why different people have so many diverse ideas about lubrication. Where I live a 50% humidity  is considered low. Consequently I seldom have problems with fouling other than normal cleanup.

Still it seems that after a few hundred years we would know by now what lube works and what doesn't.

[Daryl]

Well, Pete, for hunting, we've found Neetsfoot oil or Tracks mink oil have shown to work from any high temp, down to below -20F.
For target work all year, 90% or even more humid, or as dry as 5% or 6% humidity, WWWFuid + a couple ounces of NFOil per quart works perfectly.  
These 'lubricants' work for all of us, up here in the North.  We get humidity up to about 90% and down into the single digits.  The above works for us.

[walks with gun]

   Did you put the lime in da coconut.