Bullets in a .40, again

[Eric Krewson]

I hang with a pack of guys who all have .40s so naturally I had to make one for myself to fit in with the crowd.

We all seem to have a quest to get a heavier bullet to shoot well out of the .40s for deer hunting. My friend Joe has a .40 S&W bullet mold that throws a 178gr banded bullet which shoots great out of fouled barrel at 50 yards but not worth a hoot out of a clean barrel.

The other day one of my serious competitor friends mentioned that his cross stick friends shot bullets patched with the paper that wrapped a stick of butter with good results. Joe tried a butter paper patched bullet and got 3" groups at 50 yards out of a clean barrel. He did say there was a plastic film on one side of the paper that had to be removed.

To join in on the experiment I ordered what I thought was the same .40 bullet mold, only $16 new off eBay. When I got the mold it turned out I had bought the wrong one, it casts a148 gr instead of the 178 gr.

I inherited one of my friends entire stock of BP equipment when he died, down in one of the tackle boxes of accessories were some interesting things, even some sperm whale oil according to my friend. There was a pack of precut patches, the tightest linen weave I have ever seen and only .05,  I thought these might patch a bullet in my .40.

Yesterday evening after I was finished working up a squirrel load for my .40 I thought about the bullets I cast, why not.

The light was fading fast, the spot on my target 25 yards away was almost invisible when I loaded one of my bullets patched with a Hoppes #9 lubed patch. I had to start the bullet with a few taps from a light hammer then it went down easily. The lower band on the bullet is .385 , the upper band is .405.

My first shot with 60 gr of 3F hit low left about 3", my next shot hit in the same place, then the light was gone. I swabbed the bore between shots so I was working off an essentially clean barrel.

I may be on to something, then again I may have seen an unrepeatable fluke, more testing is in order.

My barrel is a 42", 13/16 GM with 1 in 48 twist.

[bob in the woods]

Hi Eric.  I have tried PP bullets in my .54 [ 20 years ago ] and they worked OK, but today I wouldn't bother.
At the ranges you are talking about, I'd rather have a higher velocity RB than a slower "bullet"
Testing for accuracy at 25 yards can be misleading , since my smoothbore will have all shots touching at that distance. 50 yards will give a better picture. 

[Eric Krewson]

I agree Bob, just fiddling around with stuff to to try to make the seemingly impossible, possible.

I am well stocked with flinters, a .40, .44, 50 (in the works), .54, 62, and a 12 ga .728.

[Hungry Horse]

 I don't get it, a .40 cal. Muzzleloader with a 1in 48" twist is one of the most accurate combinations in the game. With a reasonable charge, and a patched round ball, you should be able to shoot the eye out of a buck at a hundred yards. For years the short range round ball records all belonged to .40 calibers. I wouldn't even consider messing around with a bullet. If your going to shoot bullets either get a muzzleloader that is designed to shoot bullets, or go over to the dark side, and get yourself a suppository gun. GMO.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

A .40 cal. with round ball is adequate for deer, but like any ball, shot placement is crucial.  I agree with the others...you have a round ball gun that will shoot slugs with mediocrity.  You best 'bullet' other than a ball, will likely be a R.E.A.L bullet and SPG for lube.  But it won't be much heavier than the ball.

[smylee grouch]

I'm wondering how much blow by you will get shooting that bullet in a deeper than normal rifling for a bullet unless you patch it. I would think that you might not get complete obturation.

[Robby]

Some years ago I experimented with 'real' bullet in my .40. I used a soft felt over powder wad. Accuracy was okay but not a one hole at fifty yards. I think I could have tweeked things around some and got the accuracy I sought, but lost interest. If I remember correctly, member 'Roundball' was doing the same thing and eventually achieved excellent results.
Robby

[Daryl]

Playing as in experimenting with various calibre guns and bullets can be very interesting. A 60" .45 I had would shoot the 200gr. R.E.A.L. bullets into 2" or a bit less at 50 yards off a bench using 75gr. 2F.  I lubed them with Lyman's BP Gold, which I find shoots the same as SPG and 60:40 Beeswax/Vaseline.  I shot 2, 5-shot groups then loaded up a patched round ball- no wiping was necessary with the bullets nor loading the round ball afterwards. I was using Hoppe's #9 Plus that day.
As for me the .45 was not a hunting rifle, but a flint 'trail walk' rifle, I went back to shooting nothing but round balls.  I would not trust a .40 round ball to do the job on a big Mule Deer or big Whitetail Deer's front leg. ribs yes - but if the shot involves having to shoot the leg due to stance and underbrush - I'd not take the chance. A .495" ball or (much) larger would be my choice. I know for a fact that my .69 can hit a bunch of red willow and still strike centre at 100 yards with "enough" to floor a moose.  Much depends on what you are hunting in.  For me, a .40 is a round ball gun, or if fast twist, a picket gun for target shooting.

I think you meant the linen was .005" thick, Eric.  As a patch on a picket bullet, it probably would be fine.  I don't know of any commercial .40 cal. (.38/40) moulds that would work as a picket bullet very well.  I would think the 135gr. might be best, though - higher speed and better accuracy in the 48" twist, but much depends on it's actual design & length of bearing surface.  A starter that "just" fits the bore, land to land AND fits the bullet's nose shape will give more accurate, STRAIGHT BULLET loading, as if using a bullet starter as in the 1840's through to today, for picket bullet matches.  The special starter is necessary to get straight line seating of the bullet into the muzzle.

If the bullets are grooved lubricated, mechanically fitted or only .001" larger than the bore, then a starter and rod tip that fit the bullet's nose might be all that is necessary.

For mechanically fitted bullets, I used a piece of barrel, making a die out of it. Pressing almost full sized bullets through this die using an arbor press gave me lubed bullets with the rifling impressed into them. I carried them in individual 'pockets' from a Flambeau ctg. loading tray so they'd not be damaged. I could then load powder, then pull out a bullet, orient it into the rifling and then push it down to the powder. With it's aperture sights, I was able to shoot MOA to MOa 1/2 at 100 yards with this system. The barrel was a .50 Bauska with 38" twist.

 This system is something to consider if you have a 'like' barrel.

[hanshi]

I agree; the .40 is a round ball rifle.  While the .40 is not legal here for deer, I'd not hesitate to use it if it were.  I have a nice flint .40 that has always shot very well at excellent velocities out of it's 38" swamped barrel.  Never had any desire to go to conicals.

[crowbarforge]

I have a .40 that I used in Michigan for woods walks and deer. In Michigan a .40 is deer legal. However here in GA, minimum is a .45 so I had to have anther rifle gun. Had. To.  And yes, that .40 was the easiest rifle to  get to shoot very well with the least time spent twittering with loads. It is a southern poor boy stocked in walnut. Her name is Larceny. Built by my good friend Pathfinder.

[moleeyes36]

I agree; the .40 is a round ball rifle.  While the .40 is not legal here for deer, I'd not hesitate to use it if it were.  I have a nice flint .40 that has always shot very well at excellent velocities out of it's 38" swamped barrel.  Never had any desire to go to conicals.

I agree, Hanshi, a .40 is sufficient for deer and legal to use for deer and hogs in several states including here in Florida.  As long as you place your shots and keep in mind the limitations of that lighter ball at longer distances by not trying to make it into a "Trans Pasture Hog Homogenizer" it works well.

Mole Eyes 

[Eric Krewson]

I understand that a .40 is a round ball barrel, that's not in contention. It is unlikely that I will deer hunt with my .40, all my friends do, but I like my .54, DRT or very sort blood trails. Perhaps I like to play around with my toys more than most folk just to see what happens.

Sometimes I stumble upon something great in my shop that changes things for the better. It is very unlikely that I will find anything earth shattering in the realm of muzzle loading, I am pretty sure it has all been done by they guys who went before us. I do see little tricks mentioned here from time to time and think "That's a really good idea, why didn't I think of that".

Bow building is my forte, I have come up with a thing or two that changed the way a lot of beginners and even seasoned builders approach their a projects and find success. The Tillering Gizmo I invented has been my best contribution to bow making so far.

With my OCD personality it is hard to for me to accept the status quo and not squirm a bit looking for a way out.

The purpose for this post was not to argue the merits of  shooting heavy bullets in .40 over a round balls for deer hunting but to possibly draw out some like minded whackos like myself to compare experimental notes.

Thanks Daryl, you offered some great information.

[knifemaker3]

Eric,
On the hope that I don't get kicked off the forum for telling you this, I will take the chance anyway. 

Google 1000 yard underhammer muzzleloader and you should find your answers.  Yes, it is an underhammer but I don't see why you couldn't make a nice side lock that would shoot up to 1000 yards by using the information provided. 

Hope this helps you.

[hanshi]

I much prefer the .45 prb for deer but also like the .50s performance as well.  I've owned more .45s than anything else.  I admit to being impressed with the .54 prb and the .62 smoothbore on deer, and I will probably use them in the deer woods again.  I may never get the opportunity to use my .40 on a deer but the .45 will always be the go-to.

[Eric Krewson]

I have posted this before, I have a .44 with a Large barrel, Roller lock and the finest wood I have ever seen in a gun, the rest of the gun is so so in its construction. The gun was given to me by a dying friend, I usually kill a deer with it every year as a tribute to my friend. It is incredibly accurate with no mater what you put in it.

Here is the wood in the butt;


 

[ScottH]

Regarding paper patching.
You probably already know this but for someone reading that may not:

Some bullet shooters are getting amazing results and they use "Onion Skin" paper with about 25% cotton content. This paper is not made much any more as it is probably to expensive to make relative to what folks are willing to pay for it. You can still find it listed in varying amounts on Ebay. Current "Onion Skin" paper in production says it has 25% or so wood fiber content. It will work too but it may be a bit more abrasive?

Anyway Buffalo Arms has supplies on their website for folks to look at or buy if interested in paper patching bullets for shooting including in a muzzleloader which can be done successfully.

[Daryl]

You are welcome - glad it added to your possible experimentation inventory.  Quilted maple is quite striking, isn't it.

[hanshi]

Eric, You've only made me lust for more pics of that rifle.