Author Topic: Happoldt rifle with 1785 captured lid silver patchbox  (Read 10732 times)

Offline ajcraig

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 45
Happoldt rifle with 1785 captured lid silver patchbox
« on: September 21, 2016, 04:29:06 AM »
I have always enjoyed reading this forum and the incredible wealth of information provided here by the members.  Here is a percussion rifle said to be made by Happoldt in the mid-1800's using recycled hardware from a 1785 silver mounted rifle, including a patchbox with a captured lid. I have no connection with this rifle or the auction; I make this posting in the hope that others might find this patchbox and rifle of interest as I do.

Here is the auction:

http://jamesdjulia.com/item/4473-394/

Enjoy!

Offline Eric Kettenburg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4178
    • Eric Kettenburg
Re: Happoldt rifle with 1785 captured lid silver patchbox
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2016, 12:43:17 PM »
Well now that certainly is extremely interesting.  Especially given the guard, cut down side plate and what I can see of the entry pipe all likely off the original rifle as well.

Not very hard to make a connection there, is there?  I'll wait for it….  ;D
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline Molly

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1506
Re: Happoldt rifle with 1785 captured lid silver patchbox
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2016, 02:26:23 PM »
Interesting box.  I'm thinking about the box to go on a future project.  This one happens to be in the style of what I had in mind. 

Offline Hungry Horse

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5565
Re: Happoldt rifle with 1785 captured lid silver patchbox
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2016, 05:21:08 PM »
I agree with Molly,this is I dead a special early patch box. I don't think I have ever seen one with a captured lid, and hidden hinge, that is this early.

  Hungry Horse

Offline Eric Kettenburg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4178
    • Eric Kettenburg
Re: Happoldt rifle with 1785 captured lid silver patchbox
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2016, 05:32:29 PM »
Wallace had illustrated a couple of the same form, one which was a dug relic iirc, but of course none were dated.

If the engraved name, location and date is first work, it renders the piece doubly interesting.  First, because of the date affixing the box style to a place and date in time, and second, because of the other furnishings accompanying it which then tie it into a much larger discussion…

How far is Pendelton SC from Salem?
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline spgordon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1329
Re: Happoldt rifle with 1785 captured lid silver patchbox
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2016, 05:41:02 PM »
Far: 200 miles. I wondered the same thing.

But then: Bethlehem to Salem is further....
Check out: The Lost Village of Christian's Spring
https://christiansbrunn.web.lehigh.edu/
And: The Earliest Moravian Work in the Mid-Atlantic: A Guide
https://www.moravianhistory.org/product-page/moravian-activity-in-the-mid-atlantic-guidebook

Offline spgordon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1329
Re: Happoldt rifle with 1785 captured lid silver patchbox
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2016, 05:58:36 PM »
There was a J. E. Colhoun (1791-1847) of Pendleton--obviously too young to be the J. E. Colhoun referred to on this patchbox. But another source notes that there was a J. E. Colhoun "senior" who died around 1793, so he is likely the man.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2016, 05:58:59 PM by spgordon »
Check out: The Lost Village of Christian's Spring
https://christiansbrunn.web.lehigh.edu/
And: The Earliest Moravian Work in the Mid-Atlantic: A Guide
https://www.moravianhistory.org/product-page/moravian-activity-in-the-mid-atlantic-guidebook

Offline Eric Kettenburg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4178
    • Eric Kettenburg
Re: Happoldt rifle with 1785 captured lid silver patchbox
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2016, 06:00:02 PM »
Hey, Bethlehem to Salem wasn't too far for Jacob Loesch, and if the date is accurate, the timing would be perfect, wouldn't it?
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline spgordon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1329
Re: Happoldt rifle with 1785 captured lid silver patchbox
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2016, 06:02:42 PM »
Loesch got to Salem a bit earlier but began to work as a gunsmith in March 1783. So timing is good.

And, yes, I meant to suggest that 200 miles wasn't so far, given that people traveled much further (Bethlehem to Salem).
Check out: The Lost Village of Christian's Spring
https://christiansbrunn.web.lehigh.edu/
And: The Earliest Moravian Work in the Mid-Atlantic: A Guide
https://www.moravianhistory.org/product-page/moravian-activity-in-the-mid-atlantic-guidebook

Offline Eric Kettenburg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4178
    • Eric Kettenburg
Re: Happoldt rifle with 1785 captured lid silver patchbox
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2016, 06:11:41 PM »
I see we're on the same page!  And of course, as usual when something like this turns up, the original barrel is missing!!!!  Not that it *had* to have been signed, but by the post-war period the likelihood of it being signed seems to have increased pretty dramatically.
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline blienemann

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 304
Re: Happoldt rifle with 1785 captured lid silver patchbox
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2016, 07:08:42 PM »
Eric, Scott and all - I usually try for discipline and leave the speculation to others, but this is fun.

Can see a lot of #42 in this one, so that bit of history.  Then Loesch arrives, and after a bit takes on Christoph Vogler, though Loesch soon leaves Vogler to figure it out on his own.  Vogler family goes into silver mounted rifles, similar details on their rifles, and other silver products with fine engraving.  This seems like the bridge between all those players - FUN!]  C Vogler and the boys on barrel?

It's also cool to see how an approx 1850 restock has same breech as early J&S Hawkens, and other details seen there and on trade rifles of the period.  This one piece covers a lot of history.

Very little "new" in the world of gunstocking then and now.  Borrow from here and there, recycle and modify for new customers.  Could write a novel or two about this one.

OK, back to quiet research.


Offline okieboy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 822
Re: Happoldt rifle with 1785 captured lid silver patchbox
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2016, 07:32:52 PM »
 OK, let me show my ignorance here! Yes I can see that the date 1785 has been engraved on the patchbox, but other than that, how do we conclude that this rifle with a snail hooked breech was originally a flintlock?
Okieboy

Offline Eric Kettenburg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4178
    • Eric Kettenburg
Re: Happoldt rifle with 1785 captured lid silver patchbox
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2016, 07:40:46 PM »
Bob I usually try for speculation and leave the discipline just for you!

Glad I was not the only one who saw #42 as soon as I clicked on that link.  The buttplate is very interesting and I wonder if it was worked down from a larger butt piece or if by 1785 this would be considered typical?  Of course to know if it was typical, there would need to be others of a known location of the same period to use as a basis for comparison.

The Loesch/Vogler potential does seem to "fit" in a lot of ways, given the silver and given that Loesch was apparently quite the talented guy, into a bit of everything and the box design does evince a bit of 'ingenious mechanizing.'
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline spgordon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1329
Re: Happoldt rifle with 1785 captured lid silver patchbox
« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2016, 07:42:01 PM »
Nothing wrong with speculation to my mind!--as long as the speculator realizes it's the start of a conversation or process and not the end of one. Usually speculation is the important first step to learning more ... speculations can be confirmed by further research and conversation or undermined by it. The problem (more common, I think) is when somebody gets too attached to what was only speculation and starts to love it a bit too much  ::)
« Last Edit: September 21, 2016, 10:59:06 PM by spgordon »
Check out: The Lost Village of Christian's Spring
https://christiansbrunn.web.lehigh.edu/
And: The Earliest Moravian Work in the Mid-Atlantic: A Guide
https://www.moravianhistory.org/product-page/moravian-activity-in-the-mid-atlantic-guidebook

Offline Eric Kettenburg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4178
    • Eric Kettenburg
Re: Happoldt rifle with 1785 captured lid silver patchbox
« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2016, 07:42:47 PM »
Okieboy - this specific rifle was not originally a flintlock, it is a later rifle (the auction house is positing around 1850s I guess?) that was stocked up as a percussion gun but using some components of an earlier flint rifle.  I suspect the majority of the interest in this rifle is going to revolve around those components.
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline Eric Kettenburg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4178
    • Eric Kettenburg
Re: Happoldt rifle with 1785 captured lid silver patchbox
« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2016, 07:43:40 PM »
Very wise observation Scott and very hard to hold oneself to such a standard!
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline spgordon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1329
Re: Happoldt rifle with 1785 captured lid silver patchbox
« Reply #16 on: September 21, 2016, 07:44:40 PM »
Agreed. We all love our own speculations a bit too much! But it's worth having a standard ....

And we all do need to begin with speculation. A feeling, a guess, a hunch. Then you need to be open to that being modified if others have more/different information.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2016, 07:45:36 PM by spgordon »
Check out: The Lost Village of Christian's Spring
https://christiansbrunn.web.lehigh.edu/
And: The Earliest Moravian Work in the Mid-Atlantic: A Guide
https://www.moravianhistory.org/product-page/moravian-activity-in-the-mid-atlantic-guidebook

Offline spgordon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1329
Re: Happoldt rifle with 1785 captured lid silver patchbox
« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2016, 03:09:27 AM »
Maybe this is our man: John Ewing Colhoun, 1750-1802. Biography here:

http://finding-aids.lib.unc.edu/00130/
Check out: The Lost Village of Christian's Spring
https://christiansbrunn.web.lehigh.edu/
And: The Earliest Moravian Work in the Mid-Atlantic: A Guide
https://www.moravianhistory.org/product-page/moravian-activity-in-the-mid-atlantic-guidebook

Offline Eric Kettenburg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4178
    • Eric Kettenburg
Re: Happoldt rifle with 1785 captured lid silver patchbox
« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2016, 04:24:04 AM »
That does seem to fit the narrative re: the owner as per the auction description.  After referencing the abstract of the papers and the brief description of his holdings, I would assume he would have been able to afford a very nice silver-mounted rifle!
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline spgordon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1329
Re: Happoldt rifle with 1785 captured lid silver patchbox
« Reply #19 on: September 22, 2016, 04:31:51 AM »
Oy, I hadn't even read that description. Just looked at the pictures. Doh!
Check out: The Lost Village of Christian's Spring
https://christiansbrunn.web.lehigh.edu/
And: The Earliest Moravian Work in the Mid-Atlantic: A Guide
https://www.moravianhistory.org/product-page/moravian-activity-in-the-mid-atlantic-guidebook

Online rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19534
Re: Happoldt rifle with 1785 captured lid silver patchbox
« Reply #20 on: September 22, 2016, 03:03:17 PM »
The butt plate is a mystery, does not seem to fit the sideplate and especially the guard.    Hard for me to postulate an earlier buttplate that was modified to be more curved and narrow.  Just too pointy.  But the patchbox, guard, and sideplate seem too closely related to furniture of RCA 42 to be coincidental.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Eric Kettenburg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4178
    • Eric Kettenburg
Re: Happoldt rifle with 1785 captured lid silver patchbox
« Reply #21 on: September 22, 2016, 07:15:13 PM »
Maybe, or maybe not.  For the purposes of the discussion let's take the date at face value and also that the engraving was executed when the gun was constructed.  So we'll say 1785.  Now compared to #42, there is (1) a box of the same general artistic design but assumed to be a second stage, designed as a more 'contained' unit.  (This of course assumes that #42 is the original box, which if I may be honest I am not convinced that it is but that's a separate discussion that can probably never be answered). (2) The guard here to my eye looks a bit 'less than' #42, i.e. it looks like a guard like #42 was used as the casting pattern, rather than the same master for both.  Of course the photos are less than complete here but it's my first impression.  (3)  Sideplate - assuming the front bolt portion was removed when restocked, it looks like basically the same thing but obviously would have to have side by side to compare.  (4)  The buttplate.  It's obviously a later style.  But what was CS for example putting out at the time that Loesch was master, before he went back to NC?  No idea.  but look at the surrounding area.  Peter Neihart was already using smaller buttplates in the 1780s and so was John Moll (if I have Moll's chronology correct, not guaranteed but I think that I do).  Casting a slighter wider net out into Berks, we already see smaller buttplates with curvature.  The buttplate on this gun almost - *almost* - looks kind of like a variation on the Northampton sheath type.  It has a fairly flat and tapered upper portion, in other words not designed to completely span over and frame a well rounded comb.  And it does not have a dramatic rear curvature, just some curve with most at the heel. 

I really don't know.  On one hand I can see it all working together, especially if you consider the restocker likely removed at least *some* material.  Probably not very much but something at the least.  On the other hand it's possible that the buttplate was made later, just don't know.
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Online rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19534
Re: Happoldt rifle with 1785 captured lid silver patchbox
« Reply #22 on: September 23, 2016, 01:48:28 AM »
Remind me, gentlemen, where and when in Pennsylvania Loesch worked before going to Salem in was it 1781.  When was he born, when does he first show up in Pennsylvania, etc.  thanks
Andover, Vermont

Offline spgordon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1329
Re: Happoldt rifle with 1785 captured lid silver patchbox
« Reply #23 on: September 23, 2016, 02:20:16 AM »
Jacob Loesch Jr. (1760–1821) was born in North Carolina. His father had been the the first warden at Christiansbrunn in 1749 and one of the founders of Bethabara in 1753. The family returned to Pennsylvania so Loesch Sr. could become the superintendent at Nazareth in 1771--and Jacob Loesch Jr. became Christian Oerter's apprentice at Christiansbrunn in August 1773. Loesch Jr. worked alongside Oerter, William Henry, Georg Weiss, and Joseph Levering at Christiansbrunn during the busy war years and he took over the Christiansbrunn shop in July 31, 1780 when Henry, who had been master of the shop, moved to Nazareth. Loesch left for North Carolina in fall 1781--but when he arrived at Salem he was not permitted to work as a gunsmith and so worked as a locksmith instead until March 1783, when he was allowed to work as a gunsmith.

Scott
« Last Edit: September 23, 2016, 02:26:35 AM by spgordon »
Check out: The Lost Village of Christian's Spring
https://christiansbrunn.web.lehigh.edu/
And: The Earliest Moravian Work in the Mid-Atlantic: A Guide
https://www.moravianhistory.org/product-page/moravian-activity-in-the-mid-atlantic-guidebook

Offline Eric Kettenburg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4178
    • Eric Kettenburg
Re: Happoldt rifle with 1785 captured lid silver patchbox
« Reply #24 on: September 23, 2016, 02:49:49 AM »
I would love to see more first hand references to Loesch as he seems like a very, very interesting guy.  There are a number of references to him in Fries compilation of NC records and he apparently taught school, sang, played the organ and the flute, and between 1781 and 1783 (while he was not permitted to engage in gun work) it seems as though he and Valentine Beck (Beck at this point was pastor at Friedberg) got into a bit of a disagreement over who should have the right to pour pewter spoons.  The settlement of the issue seems to have favored Beck with the caveat that he improve the form and the alloy, so possibly Loesch was making spoons of better quality.  There is quite a bit more - he was on quite a few occasions the subject of numerous issues amongst the 'elders.'  He was apparently a capable clockmaker as well as capable of making an organ.  Also it was noted in 1787 that he had an air rifle and was in some way doing harm to himself and others (I assume reputation?).  It appears that by May in 1787 anyway, Vogler had taken over the gunshop?  Not sure of the exact date but there is a notation for this and it is mentioned in past tense, as something already done.
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!