turn barrel

[dmb25]

Ok makes sense I think I will play with the spring I have now and then depending on what happens I do have spring steel on hand. Thanks for all the advice and I will spending 6 hours at the machien shop today so I should have additional pictures latter

[smart dog]

I (Smart Dog) am posting these for my friend Bill Paton:

I (Bill Paton) have a Waters-made barreled swivel breech action I bought third hand, and is signed on the lock plate “D Waters”. Bob Elka of Michigan stocked it for me very nicely. Several issues were encountered with the action, which I will discuss in four posts.
 
1) Weak mainspring:
 
The cock wouldn’t throw a spark or open the frizzen. The mainspring felt very weak. Bob made a wedge to put between the mainspring and frizzen spring, which gave enough strength to the spring to make a spark, but still the cock throw was inadequate for reliable firing.
 
In my Kentucky double rifle study travels, I visited Smart Dog (Dave Person) in Vermont and took the lock to him. Reforming and re-tempering the spring helped, but did not cure the weak spring problem, so the wedge is still doing its job. Smart Dog will attach the photos with this post to clarify the solution. The combined V spring for main and sear functions recently posted by Pushboater seems like an excellent alternative solution to this problem.
 
I will post three more issues with my Waters build that might be helpful as others are built, and will ask Smart Dog to post appropriate photos as well.
 
Bill Paton, Anchorage, Alaska

[smart dog]

Here is Bill's second post:

2) Inadequate cock throw:
 
As made, the cock throw was adequate only for a percussion system. At half cock, even a short flint rested on the frizzen face, preventing its closure on the pan. At full cock, the cock barely developed enough momentum to strike good sparks and throw the frizzen forward, even with a strengthened spring. The first two photos show the “as built” cocking positions.
 
Grinding away at the tumbler and bridle (where they contacted each other to limit the backward pull of the cock) helped, and additionally the top of the sear had to be relieved to clear the new downward depression of the mainspring as the cock traveled farther back.
 
A new long nosed sear was installed (a new L and R part from another lock type) to reach the notches of the tumbler. The bridle needed further modifications for the new sear. In the new tumbler position, the existing full cock notch was at the wrong angle and would not hold at full cock. I sent the lock to Dave Person again, and he annealed the tumbler, re-cut the notch to the correct angle, and re-hardened it. The lock now had a flintlock degree of throw and sparked well.
 
However, upon replacing the lock in the stock, the cock wouldn’t pull back far enough to engage the sear at full cock.  The trouble was interference of the forward part of the tumbler on the swivel axel washer. Grinding on the tumbler corrected that. Now the back of the cock gooseneck ran into the stock, which had to be notched to accommodate the new cock position. The second two photos show the corrected half and full cock positions. Note the (yet unstained) notch in the stock to accommodate the new full cock position. (This notch is often seen on original single and double barreled Kentucky rifles.)
 
Bill Paton

[smart dog]

Bill's 3rd pot.  
3) Forward cock arrest method:
 
A flint cock must have its forward motion arrested after the flint strikes the frizzen and opens the pan. In a single barrel flintlock, that normally occurs when the shoulder on the cock strikes the top of the lock plate. Some late flintlocks had an oversized lower jaw that struck an oversized pan fence (like an anvil). Relying on an internal stop (a part of the tumbler arresting on part of the bridle) is a mechanically poor solution to this problem that I believe was not normally used in original flintlocks.
 
Most original swivel breech actions used a horizontal cock shoulder striking the top of the lock plate and an “anvil notch" on the base plate of the swivel mechanism as part of the cock-arresting surface. See photos of the Peter Kunz original swivel breech mechanism.




Dave Waters uses a very unusual vertical cock shoulder that arrests solely on the back surface of the base plate. I prefer the original common solution, as I think it is less stressful to the dovetail joint between the lock plate and the base plate. See photos of the Waters mechanism.




I note David Belzer’s lock has a horizontal shoulder on the cock, unlike the Waters drawings and example. That horizontal shoulder should work well, and additionally will require an “anvil” notch to be filed into the base plate exactly lined up with the top of the lock plate. I like that modification of the Waters system.
 
Pushboater shows his very nice V spring lock modification, and incidentally shows a 90 degree angled cock shoulder that stops on the top of the lock plate AND the back of the base plate. I have seen that system on one original swivel breech rifle ( Stofil Smith 1806 in the Mercer Museum, Doylestown, PA), but prefer the common system as distributing forces better.


 
Bill Paton

[smart dog]

Bill's 4th post:

4) Classic way to shape frizzen/pan plates:
 
The Waters method of using the front of a standard flint lock plate is seen in the photos accompanying this thread. This somewhat clumsy appearing system is not normally seen in original European or American swiveling rifles.
 
Also pictured here is the usual pattern of the frizzen plate seen in original American swivel breech or European wender rifles. This symmetrically shaped plate with its front tongue inlet into the stock and its back portion equal in width to the lock plate and anchored securely to the swivel plate is very pleasing to my eye and I much prefer its use on these double rifles.



 
Bill Paton

[Bill Paton]

Many thanks to Smart Dog for his far-greater-than-expected efforts in bringing to you the last four posts on this thread. Because of my inabilities, he had to handle each photo individually by downloading, copying, renaming, uploading into Photo Bucket, and attaching to ALR! I fear he might have completed another of his magnificent builds if I hadn’t initiated these posts. Hopefully, some of you "Waters Turn Barrel" builders will benefit from his efforts. THANKS, DAVE PERSON!

Bill Paton

[pushboater]

Dave, Bill, thank you both for the Great information and the outstanding photographs! To say that my Swivel Breech build has been a great learning experience would be a gross understatement! A lot of the mistakes I've made I'll just have to live with and try and do better on the next one. Hopefully the end result won't look TOO bad! Thanks again!

Capt. David

[dmb25]

yes like push boater said thanks for all the advice glade to know this stuff before I got to far along on the lock.

[dmb25]

dumb question where do you find the 6-40 flat head screw he uses in the book for a simple screw its hard to find

[Bob Roller]

What length thread and what diameter head do you need?
These have to be made in the shop and I made a lot of them
over the years.

Bob Roller

[pushboater]

David, I found a good selection of 6-40 screws at a local Hobby Shop that catered to RC Aircraft and Cars. Also, Brownells has them. I ordered a package of 25 that are 1/2" long and just cut them to the length I need.

Capt. David

[Seth Isaacson]

... On one gun, the maker put a little wedge that fit tightly between the mainspring and the sear spring.  The wedge gave the mainspring much more leverage and strength...

I've seen the same on several antique swivel breech guns, and the locks seemed to function fine.

[dmb25]

another question for those who built one before how did you go about soldering the bushing between the swivel plates. any tips before I try it would be appreciated
  

[pushboater]

David, it's not the way Dave Waters describes in his book, but after I drilled the appropriate hole in the front plate I chucked a tap in my drill press and threaded it 1/2X20. Cut the same threads on the end of the Swivel Tube, and after fluxing the threads good, screwed them together and Silver soldered. Worked great for me, and seems plenty strong enough. We'll see!

Capt. David

[dmb25]

well unfortunate i already have the holes in my plates but I wish I would have thought about that before I cut them them good thinking     

[ericxvi]

David,
I made one a few years ago. I decided I wanted to case harden
the swivel plates, so I turned the front plate including the bushing from
 a 5/8" thick piece of mild steel. It worked for me.

[pushboater]

Eric, that sounds like a good way of doing it also.  Unfortunately I'm limited to a drill press, a palm sander, and a belt sander. Thats the extent of my machines. Everything else is a bench vise and hand tools.

David

[dmb25]

been a while since I showed my progress my lock is no functioning and plates mount together just need to get the release done