Trying to figue out patch thickness?

[Heavies]

Lurking and reading, I've read that some great shooters are using a "tight patch and ball combos" to get great accuracy, no need to wipe between shots, and easy loading all day shooting. 

After studying the awesome resources here, (thank you very much for the help!)  I've found much to be true. Wet tight patch and ball, at the range, cleans on the way down and is easy to load and shoot, and no more crud blocking the touch hole, by wiping between shots, causing misfires.

Tried a bunch of different patch materials and different thicknesses, my question is.....

I've seen ~.020"(or more) patch in a ball .005" smaller than bore diameter.  How do you get that to squeeze down the bore without hammering the ball and patch into the lands? 

i.e.  .445 + .020 + .020 =  .485"  Bore size is .450"


Ive measured the patch material at compression, as best as I can compress it, with calipers.  The patching I've measured at .020" is much thicker uncompressed. When I tried loading this combo, it took more force than I was confident in using to get the ball only half into the bore.  Decided to stop there and pull 'er out of the crown before I reached the point of no return.  haha.  The top of the ball was obviously marred by the short starter nub, and the lead was also being swaged into the size of the lands.

Just trying to wrap my head around how this tight of a patch can be loaded without the use of a hammer.

Sorry for my ignorance. 

[smylee grouch]

A well polished crown will help getting the ball started with out deforming it too much. Bench rest shooters sometimes have a false muzzle on the end which has a cone so they can shoot a ball 10/1000 larger than bore size.

[Hungry Horse]

I shoot for enjoyment, and occasionally hunting. I don't enjoy coming home with carperal tunnel from pounding on a short starter, or hammering away like "kindly old Jeppeto" trying to get an oversized patch ball combination down my barrel. I shoot a ten thousandths undersize ball with fifteen to eighteen thousands tightly woven patching. Tightly woven is a key phrase here. Material today is made to fail soon, not last forever, so most patch material is doomed before you start. Cotton loses it integrity over time, so if you buy forty yards of cotton patching material, you may find that a few years down the road you old smoke pole starts blowing patches. It ain't the gun. I haunt the thrift stores for old linen table cloths, and napkins. They rarely wear out, resist rot, and are usually tightly woven, and cheap.
 I dip my precut patches in my own hot melted patch lube, and squeeze out the excess. This combination will shoot all day. And, shoot as well, or better than most. Heck it usually shoot better than me.

  Hungry Horse

[Darkhorse]

The point is not trying to find out how tight a combination you can seat, it's about what works best in your particular rifle. When I started shooting muzzleloaders back in 1976 it was recommended I try real Pillow ticking and I did. I measure mine with a tight crush with Micrometers and I use .0175 thick ticking for all the rifles I've had over the years. I have never failed to find the accuracy I was looking for using this thickness. Depending on lube I can shoot all day without cleaning if I wish.
Right now I'm down to 2 flintlocks a .40 and .54 and I use .395 round balls and .0175 patch, and .530 round balls and the same .0175 patch.
I know this is blasphemy to some but it's one's own choice what they do and I'm fine with that.
But to me it's just simple if it worked 40 years ago it will work now and it's a lot easier to load.
I would recommend starting with a ball .005 to .010 undersize and 100% real cotton .0175 thick and go from there.

[Heavies]

Thank you for the replies.  I have been using .018" compressed pillow ticking from TOF pre lubed and spit patch, either goes in and loads easy enough.  Finding this type of material where I'm at locally can be problematic. So I need to order it.  Just tried some of the other materials like Denim, cotton material, canvas, etc.  I had lying around.

Just trying  to figure the reason thicker can be done in other rifles.

Also noticed the way the patch goes in made a difference in easy loading.  If the "top" of the striped ticking goes around the ball, it slides down the bore smoothly and easily, if the "back" of the material is toward the projectile it seems to be sticky going down. 

Is this a function of the way it is woven? 

[RichG]

the local Jo-Ann fabrics usually has good ticking .018-.02 thick. Wal-Mart usually has the made in china .015 thick. I've had good luck with both depending on the load combo.

[Darkhorse]

Thank you for the replies.  I have been using .018" compressed pillow ticking from TOF pre lubed and spit patch, either goes in and loads easy enough.  Finding this type of material where I'm at locally can be problematic. So I need to order it.  Just tried some of the other materials like Denim, cotton material, canvas, etc.  I had lying around.

Just trying  to figure the reason thicker can be done in other rifles.

Also noticed the way the patch goes in made a difference in easy loading.  If the "top" of the striped ticking goes around the ball, it slides down the bore smoothly and easily, if the "back" of the material is toward the projectile it seems to be sticky going down. 

Is this a function of the way it is woven?

I have no idea about that. I always put the striped side down when loading my rifles. The reason I do it is "Consistency", the more consistent you are is a key to finding your best accuracy.

[Dphariss]

Thank you for the replies.  I have been using .018" compressed pillow ticking from TOF pre lubed and spit patch, either goes in and loads easy enough.  Finding this type of material where I'm at locally can be problematic. So I need to order it.  Just tried some of the other materials like Denim, cotton material, canvas, etc.  I had lying around.

Just trying  to figure the reason thicker can be done in other rifles.

Also noticed the way the patch goes in made a difference in easy loading.  If the "top" of the striped ticking goes around the ball, it slides down the bore smoothly and easily, if the "back" of the material is toward the projectile it seems to be sticky going down. 

Is this a function of the way it is woven?

I have no idea why its harder to load one way that the other. I always load the fabric the same way if is possible to tell.
Find some denim.  Most of the ticking I have found in recent years comes from the commies and its useless. Try tearing it down the stripe. Should be hard to tear.  Fabric store ticking is now like toilet paper or close to it. I have gone to linen for the most part. But it will NOT compress like cotton and a slightly thinner material will be needed.  I also like tallow for patch lube but some rifles will not shoot slick lubes as well and not so slick lubes.
Heavy weight linen can be found on the WWW. But order swatches to see how thick it really is before ordering a yard or several. The heaviest stuff used for coats and such should work.

Dan

[thecapgunkid]

Always been impressed by guys who can measure and calibrate with such finesse.

Keeping in mind that the best winter trekking I ever did was accommodated by doing what folks did in the 18th, I never really took careful measurements with my guns.  I get a two to three inch group at about fifty and can ding Tootsie Roll Pops and long range gongs on trail walks like most people who want to shoot badly enough to practice, but all I ever did was trial and error my load when sighting in by these principles;

Does the gun crack or bang?
Is the patch in tact with a black, even ring or shredded?
Did the ball have to be seduced to seat without breaking my hand?
Were  there some red dots in the bore at the muzzle sometimes?
Can I get five sots in without running a patch?

Once I got all those things right I cut the powder measure to one  length and use one charge, one ball and one patch per gun.  I could win matches in my younger days just by doing that. 

I dunno what happened in the fifteen years I was away Cowboy shooting, but now the targets have been made to dance around and the ground shakes a little every time I aim.  Must be them devious club members who set up the trail walk...

Don't shoot yore eye out, kid

The Capgun Kid

[deepcreekdale]

I agree with Capgun kid. I pretty much use 50 grains of powder in all my 50 cal flintlock rifles, .490 balls and Jo-Anns pillow ticking with a friends homemade patch lube. They all shoot the same. Ball goes down easy for an entire match if a cleaning patch is run down the bore after about 5-6 shots. I can still win a match or two, but I am no longer a good enough shot that tiny variations in patching material thickness, lube etc make as much difference as my deteriorating eyesight and arthritis do. I see others guys obsessing over patch thickness, ball size, lube composition, powder charge or whatever then watch them hammer the ball down the bore and not shoot any better than those of us that are more casual. I get picky with my chunk gun or paper patched bullet target loads but for offhand flintlock matches, I personally think practice time, technique and shooting ability trump other variables. If you have fun being meticulous regarding these things, trying different powder charges and patch and ball combinations and so on, great, have at it, no harm to anyone. Anyone here think the old timers hammered their balls down their bores and miked their patch materials?

[Scota4570]

Something not mentioned is the depth of grooves.  Even with the same caliber and bore diameter, a Green Mountain Barrel and a Colerain with radiused grooves will require much different patch thicknesses.  Probably different ball sizes too. 

I would stick with one style of grooves for each calibe, maybe even the same barrel maker?  I don't see any significant difference in how they shoot.  Why complicate the logistics by having different balls and patches for rifles of the same nominal caliber? 

[Daryl]

Sunday I shot the trail with Verner. He's a .50 that Taylor built & what works well in him is 3 drams (82gr.) GOEX 2F, a .021" patch with .495" ball. Easy loading, no hammering,no pounding, tapping, nor malleting (new word) even with the rifle's tapered 1/4" to 7/16" rod. Also, there is no need to wipe for a day's shooting. A starter is necessary, but been using one since 1972 - no big deal - second nature and probably as fast as a thumb starter - if you are in a hurry, but who is?

[Daryl]

About patch thickness - when compressed in calipers, if you can find 6 ounce denim, it's about .017", 8 ounce denim is about .020", 10 ounce is about .0225", 12 ounce is about .030" & 14 ounce is about .035".

Now, just how wide the jaws are on your calipers will give up to .003" difference from these measurements, that is, about 1 1/2 thou up or down form these, as these are measurements from my middle measuring calipers, of the 3 "pairs" that I have.

I measure Track's OxYoke lubed .018" ticking patches at .016" and they are too thin for any of my rifles - they do not seal and throw shots.

[Heavies]

About patch thickness - when compressed in calipers, if you can find 6 ounce denim, it's about .017", 8 ounce denim is about .020", 10 ounce is about .0225", 12 ounce is about .030" & 14 ounce is about .035".

Now, just how wide the jaws are on your calipers will give up to .003" difference from these measurements, that is, about 1 1/2 thou up or down form these, as these are measurements from my middle measuring calipers, of the 3 "pairs" that I have.

I measure Track's OxYoke lubed .018" ticking patches at .016" and they are too thin for any of my rifles - they do not seal and throw shots.

When talking denim, it just 100% cotton plain denim?

[bob in the woods]

Daryl...you mean a .495 ball, don't you ?

[Maven]

Yes, it's got to be 100% cotton denim...and bring a micrometer with you when you go to the fabric store.  (Search this subform for Daryl's explanation of how to make an accurate reading.)

[P.W.Berkuta]

No matter what tool you measure the fabric with in the store it will be different after you wash the sizing out of the fabric as you should wash the fabric to remove the sizing. The material when washed will be softer and more compressible it also will absorbe more lube allowing more shots between wiping of the bore. Whatever tool you use you have to get a repeatable measuring techniques down or you are just chasing your tail.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Bob ITW:  I fixed it for him.  He obviously doesn't proof read his posts.

[Daryl]

WHAT?- Looks fine to me - LOL.

When buying material, I get several yards/meters then into the washing machine it goes - regular wash with soap, then a full wash cycle without soap. Then, into the dryer.  Pure 100% cotton denim usually gets nice and soft, and may be .001" thicker, sometimes .001" thinner maybe different make.  This is heavily compressed between the caliper's tines, which are squeezed as hard as possible between thumb and forefinger - not the push wheel - .001" thicker patch is better, of course - but - if the numbers show you are getting .005" or more compression in the bottom of the grooves - 1 thou more or less makes no difference.

Ball diameter in inches, added to 2x patch thickness in inches = .010" LARGER than groove to groove diameter, THAT LOAD will shoot well.  .010" larger than groove to groove equals .005" COMPRESSION (larger than ball + patch) in the bottom of each groove.  No mallets, no hammers, no pounding. Watch the video again if you do not believe it - or I could post a couple more videos showing the same thing.

[Heavies]

Thank you folks