Successfully proofed 16 gauge barrels today

[webradbury]

So the project trudges forward! I'm building a double barrel 16 gauge flintlock and struggled with the breechplugs fit. After four pairs, I have a pair that fit and work! Next time it won't be so difficult since I know how to do it (knock on wood). It's a good day for me. The barrels held up fine with a double load. Made a BIG boom! 

[jerrywh]

 What kind of steel did you use for the barrels?

[Joe S.]

Hopefully 12L14,and it held together!

[webradbury]

They are a set of modern barrels i threaded from breach plugs following Brockway's instruction in his book.

[Long John]

WE

You are ahead of me.

I just finished soldering my barrels together.  I am now in the process of fitting the standing breech.  Once that is done I will proof my barrels.

I decided to ignore the advice of Mr. Brockway and bought a pair of 28 gauge smooth-bore barrels from Robert Hoyt.  Unfortunately they are heavier than I really wanted.  But they are appropriate for the mid-18th century French gun I hope to end-up with.



I fitted conventional counter-bored breech plugs to them and then soldered them together, benefiting enormously from the generous advice provided by Jerry Huddleston.  Thank you Jerry!  And so far he has been spot-on right about everything!







I have learned that starting with a pair of separate barrels is a LOT OF WORK!  But I have learned a lot that I would not have learned otherwise.

Good luck on your build, these are NOT easy!

Best Regards,

JMC
John Cholin

[Rolf]

Your barrels look great John!! How did you regulate them? Hope you'll post more Pictures as you build. Lot to learn here.

Best regards
Rolf

[webradbury]

I want to learn how to solder barrels. I also was looking for shotgun barrel blanks to make my barrels but cannot find any. There is a fellow in GB who makes and sells Damascus tubes to order but they are prohibitively expensive.

[Long John]

Rolf,

The short answer is - I didn't.  I'm an engineer, been one for over 40 years.  Engineers calculate stuff.  I assumed that the barrels were perfectly straight and shot lazar beams concentric with the bore, and ran the calculations for how far off the point of impact would be if the two barrels were 1/32" off from the same point of aim.  At 20 yards the answer was about 4" (10 cm).  So a 24 inch (61 cm) diameter pattern would be 4" (10 cm) off at 20 yards (18 m).   I would never notice that!  I'm NOT that good a shot!

The real challenge in regulation is that a side-by-side double gun ALWAYS shoots a diverging pattern, the right barrel shoots to the right and the left barrel shoots to the left, because the center of the recoil force for each barrel is NOT co-planar with the center of resistance force through the butt.  When one resolves the force vectors for the double gun one sees that they ALWAYS will shoot a divergent pattern and the barrels have to be "toed-in" to compensate.  The big question is how much compensation does one need?

The amount of compensation depends upon a long list of variables like weight of gun, weight of shot, weight of powder charge, length of barrels, length of butt stock, distance between barrels, weight of the shooter and probably some more.  Calculating the divergence angle requires numerical values for variable that are next to impossible to nail-down and very complex numerical simulations.   I'm too old for that!  So I measured the divergence of some other double guns and estimated.  If I'm wrong on my "guess" for divergence angle I probably won't notice BECAUSE I'm not that good a shot in the first place!  This logic will not work for a rifle gun!

I bought 2 barrels from Robert Hoyt.  He does beautiful work, he is great to work with and his deliveries are right on time!  But, the pair of barrels is too heavy, 5.5 pounds, for the "classic English" double gun of the last decade of the 18th century.  If I build another I will have to get tubes from a barrel vendor that runs 4140 material, maybe Ed Rayl.  The gun I am building is 50 years before the English design was refined.  The mid-18th century French guns that have been sold on the James Julia auction site are all around 7 to 7.7 pounds. 

I filed a flat along the side of each barrel.  I clamped them to a piece of brand new cold-roll steel 1/2" thick and 3" wide that is 24" long, like Brockway shows in his book.  I used Brownell's Silvalloy 355 silver solder ribbon, one piece at the breeches and one pieces at the muzzles.  I used a MAPP-gas torch.  They are stuck together, right proper.

I'll start a thread with my build.  I'm taking a lot of photos as I go.

Best Regards,

JMC
John Cholin

[Daryl]

John - you might be lucky in point of impact with the mathematical method.  Other makers - from the 19th century found that with SxS - the math wasn't enough.  Each barrel actually recoiled away from the other, and due to this, required more divergence.  Now, this was VERY prevalent with SxS rifles due to higher recoil, perhaps not as much with shotguns - so the math alone might indeed be all that is needed.

The British gun makers usually had to shoot, then - re-adjust (separate- recolder), shoot, re-adjust and shoot again, sometimes re-adjusting multiple times to get the regulation correct for rifles.  I am sure 'pelters' were not that fussy and many merely used the different diameters of the breeches and muzzles to give regulation.

The regulation was also effected by the load, and changing merely wads, shot or powder, could change individual point of impact as well as pattern density.

I once had a SxS that was infuriating to shoot (well), the points of impact so bad.  They diverged (shot apart) and on printed on different elevations as well.  For a $1,200.00 shotgun in the late 80's or 90's (can't remember exactly), that should not have occurred. I did not own it long - the store having to take it back.

[Rolf]

Rolf,

The short answer is - I didn't.  I'm an engineer, been one for over 40 years.  Engineers calculate stuff.  I assumed that the barrels were perfectly straight and shot lazar beams concentric with the bore, and ran the calculations for how far off the point of impact would be if the two barrels were 1/32" off from the same point of aim.  At 20 yards the answer was about 4" (10 cm).  So a 24 inch (61 cm) diameter pattern would be 4" (10 cm) off at 20 yards (18 m).   I would never notice that!  I'm NOT that good a shot!

The real challenge in regulation is that a side-by-side double gun ALWAYS shoots a diverging pattern, the right barrel shoots to the right and the left barrel shoots to the left, because the center of the recoil force for each barrel is NOT co-planar with the center of resistance force through the butt.  When one resolves the force vectors for the double gun one sees that they ALWAYS will shoot a divergent pattern and the barrels have to be "toed-in" to compensate.  The big question is how much compensation does one need?

The amount of compensation depends upon a long list of variables like weight of gun, weight of shot, weight of powder charge, length of barrels, length of butt stock, distance between barrels, weight of the shooter and probably some more.  Calculating the divergence angle requires numerical values for variable that are next to impossible to nail-down and very complex numerical simulations.   I'm too old for that!  So I measured the divergence of some other double guns and estimated.  If I'm wrong on my "guess" for divergence angle I probably won't notice BECAUSE I'm not that good a shot in the first place!  This logic will not work for a rifle gun!

I bought 2 barrels from Robert Hoyt.  He does beautiful work, he is great to work with and his deliveries are right on time!  But, the pair of barrels is too heavy, 5.5 pounds, for the "classic English" double gun of the last decade of the 18th century.  If I build another I will have to get tubes from a barrel vendor that runs 4140 material, maybe Ed Rayl.  The gun I am building is 50 years before the English design was refined.  The mid-18th century French guns that have been sold on the James Julia auction site are all around 7 to 7.7 pounds. 

I filed a flat along the side of each barrel.  I clamped them to a piece of brand new cold-roll steel 1/2" thick and 3" wide that is 24" long, like Brockway shows in his book.  I used Brownell's Silvalloy 355 silver solder ribbon, one piece at the breeches and one pieces at the muzzles.  I used a MAPP-gas torch.  They are stuck together, right proper.

I'll start a thread with my build.  I'm taking a lot of photos as I go.

Best Regards,

JMC
John Cholin

  Ouch!!!!! Ive got alot to learn, before trying to join the two barrels I bougth in England.
Looking forward to your thread.

Best regards
Rolf

[Long John]

Daryl,

You are right - I might get lucky!

But this is perfect!  I have a little 20 gauge hammer double made in England.  Sweet little gun!  When I miss everybody knows ITS MY FAULT!  Now, when I miss its just the pattern is diverging more than it should.

This is going to be primarily a squirrel and rabbit gun.  A little 28 gauge double.  I have a Norwegian Buhund, Ollie, (short for Prins Olaf) who loves to hunt squirrels and rabbits.  He finds a squirrel, runs to the far side of the tree, barking, the squirrel scampers around so its back is to me,  boom, dinner is served.  Same with rabbits, but unlike a beagle, one whistle and he is back to my side waiting to find out where we are going next.

How much better can it get?

JMC

[Daryl]

A delightful hunting partner indeed.

[webradbury]

My pure bred dogs eat cat #%@*

That's the best they will do. Lucky me!

[Long John]

WE,

I owe you an apology.  Without thinking I high-jacked your thread.  My bad!  Please forgive me.  I won't do it again!

On your barrel proofing, how did you discharge the barrels.  I tried the use of a trail of powder poured across the ground once several years ago for something else and it did not look like what is depicted in the movies!  The trail of powder burned in a single flash, traversing about 10 yards in a fraction of a second.  I didn't even have time to turn around before the target charge lit-off!

Are you using one of the popular reference books as a guide?  I have Brockway's book but not the more recent one.

I'll start another thread to discuss my build.  We can compare notes.

Best Regards,

JMC
John Cholin

[webradbury]

It's community property .

I used a smokeless powder (lilgun) to make a fuse. It burns really slow in a line.

[Daryl]

It's community property .

I used a smokeless powder (lilgun) to make a fuse. It burns really slow in a line.

Yes- most smokeless powders will do that very well - there are more slower burning powders than  Lil'Gun for a fuse than there are faster ones. It is actually a shotgun powder (.410). Most any smokeless would work and after some trials, you might find variable timing just by changing powder numbers.
Of note, perhaps, they all burn hot.

[Hudnut]

Just a comment on test firing detached barrels - the green "cannon" fuse works.
Electricity does too.  Use a long enough length of 2 wire flex.  Separate and strip the ends.  Twist some steel wool to the exposed wires at the end that is in proximity to the priming.  Apply a 9v battery to the other end.  The steel wool will incandesce almost instantly.  Seems to be more predictable/controllable than fuse.

[Long John]

Hudnut,

Great idea for an igniter!  Thanks!

JMC
John Cholin

[jerrywh]

 O don't think muzzle loading shotgun barrels were ever regulated to any degree of accuracy. Why?  The maximum effective range of a muzzle loading 12 ga. was about 40 yards at best. Most of them were cylinder bored. even if they were choke bored the pattern at 35 to 40 yards was about 30" to 40 " wide. If a gun shot where the bore was pointing the average point of aim will be off by less than 3" at 40 yards. BUT-the recoil throws the left barrel to the left correcting that to some degree and the same for the right barrel.  In effect an error that small is of no consequence within the 40 " circle of shot. After doing the math I measured about a dozen sets of barrels. they were all different. That tells me it didn't matter.

[webradbury]

O don't think muzzle loading shotgun barrels were ever regulated to any degree of accuracy. Why?  The maximum effective range of a muzzle loading 12 ga. was about 40 yards at best. Most of them were cylinder bored. even if they were choke bored the pattern at 35 to 40 yards was about 30" to 40 " wide. If a gun shot where the bore was pointing the average point of aim will be off by less than 3" at 40 yards. BUT-the recoil throws the left barrel to the left correcting that to some degree and the same for the right barrel.  In effect an error that small is of no consequence within the 40 " circle of shot. After doing the math I measured about a dozen sets of barrels. they were all different. That tells me it didn't matter.

Could the wider pattern be due to the old cardboard wads that were used back then? Seems like modern wads with their shot cups hold the shot together a bit longer once clear of the bore.
I read somewhere also that the old paper shells of yesteryear did not pattern well due to the wad punching a hole int he pattern creating a "donut" pattern. I think this is why I missed that wood duck MANY years ago...or maybe I just can't shoot fer ----!😜

[jerrywh]

 There is one thing some shotgun makers don't think about. A gun will shoot wherever the last 6" of the barrel is pointing.
When joining shotgun barrels attention needs to be on the spacers in between the barrels when the ribs are installed. The spacers need to be fit so that the barrels do not deflect when clamped to solder the ribs on.  If a shot pattern was to miss a bird at 40 yards the barrels would have to be misaligned by at least 3/8".  Go figure the math.