Author Topic: U.S. Model 1800 flintlock rifle serial #15 made at Harper’s Ferry Arsenal  (Read 14978 times)

arlen

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Has there been any research written in a book about the U.S. Model 1800 flintlock rifle serial #15 made at Harper’s Ferry Arsenal created under the direction of Joseph Perkin?
Is this rifle authentic?  What is the provenance of this rifle?
I notice that this rifle was sold at auction in 2012.  Where is this rifle today?





« Last Edit: October 28, 2024, 09:30:27 PM by Ky-Flinter »

Offline 120RIR

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It's a somewhat controversial argument that this is one of the "short rifles" that was on the Lewis and Clark expedition but I knew the previous owner, the gentlemen that did the flawless research, and had the pleasure of seeing and holding the gun in person and I think the argument is iron-clad.  The few bench copies of it are fantastic but alas, I missed my opportunity a number of years ago but may still get a chance at one of them in the not-too-distant future.

arlen

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Has there been a close photographic study of this rifle?  I would like to learn as much as possible.

Offline Mtn Meek

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Arlen,

You can get castings made from the original rifle from The Rifle Shoppe and build your own.

http://therifleshoppe.com/catalog_pages/us_arms/(935).htm

I also see on their website that The Rifle Shoppe has completed its move to new shops and homes and have the phones working again.  The new address and phone numbers are given here.

http://therifleshoppe.com/
Phil Meek

Offline Mike Brooks

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Does this differ in some way from a M1803?
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Longknife

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Yes it does, read the info on TRS website.....Ed
Ed Hamberg

arlen

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Mtn Meek, I have seen that the kit is offered on The Rifle Shoppe.  I will most probably acquire a kit.
I wish that this rifle was owned by a museum, NRA, or NMLRA.  The NRA could devote the huge funds to inspect, test, evaluate the remnants.

Offline 120RIR

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I'm not sure the Rifle Shop(pe) parts are actually taken from the original but what I do know for certain is that the caliber is incorrect as is the type of rifling and the rib they use is solid and not three pieces brazed or soldered together like the original #15.  In addition, the original butt plate was constructed of two pieces brazed together - the Rifle Shop is one cast piece.  There are also other subtle differences that I don't quite recall at the moment but if you're looking  for a truly accurate copy of #15, the RS version is not it.

Offline Brent English

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I'm not sure the Rifle Shop(pe) parts are actually taken from the original but what I do know for certain is that the caliber is incorrect as is the type of rifling and the rib they use is solid and not three pieces brazed or soldered together like the original #15.  In addition, the original butt plate was constructed of two pieces brazed together - the Rifle Shop is one cast piece.  There are also other subtle differences that I don't quite recall at the moment but if you're looking  for a truly accurate copy of #15, the RS version is not it.

I've always been fascinated by the rifles L&C are supposed to have carried.  I could not find the caliber of the kit on the Rifle Shoppe site.  Can you tell me the difference there between #15 and the barrel they offer?  To me the differences in the rib are resolvable if you want to make your own sheet metal one and if I want a two piece brazed butt plate, I suppose I could always cut theirs and braze it back together so that it would have a braze line.  I'd always expect a few differences between a kit based on remnants of an original, just based on manufacturing difference between today and then, as well as trying to keep the cost somewhat reasonable on a product with a very limited market. Only other real option would be to entirely hand make one and since only remnants remain, there would always be some details subject to interpretation.

Thanks for any info you can provide on the caliber.
Done right is better than done fast.

Offline 120RIR

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If I recall correctly, the RS version is in .54 caliber and the original was .52.  Also, I'm not quite sure how to describe the rifling but it did not consist of conventional lands and grooves but rather the bore was hexagonal (or was it octagonal?) which resulted in far less fowling build-up and need for cleaning between shots.  Again, it's been at least 6-7 years since I held the original and one of the bench copies but other than the 3-piece rib, brazed butt plate, and some other subtle differences between the original and the RS copy, the caliber/rifling difference was one of the biggies that stands out in my mind.  You can find a little additional info. on #15 here:  http://www.1803harpersferry.com/

arlen

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thank you very much.  These are very interesting and informative replies.  It is what I was searching for.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2017, 04:52:19 AM by arlen »

Offline 120RIR

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You bet!  I think that website also has contact information for the one of the guys (Rick Keller and Ernie Cowan) who did the research on #15.  Ernie in particular could fill you in on the most minute of details!

Offline Mtn Meek

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There may be another HF 1803 with one of those low serial numbers if this rifle is authentic.



Some more info on the rifle can be seen here:

http://missoulian.com/news/state-and-regional/firearm-to-be-unveiled-at-th-anniversary-of-travelers-rest/article_3f36a5b6-a39e-11e0-9765-001cc4c002e0.html

It would be interesting to see how the characteristics of this #12 compares to #15 under discussion.
Phil Meek

Offline Skirmisher

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Bob Hoyt did an examination of #15 and described it as having g "ratchet" rifling, much different than the production rifling of later M1803 rifles. 

Offline Mtn Meek

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If I recall correctly, the RS version is in .54 caliber and the original was .52.  Also, I'm not quite sure how to describe the rifling but it did not consist of conventional lands and grooves but rather the bore was hexagonal (or was it octagonal?) which resulted in far less fowling build-up and need for cleaning between shots.  Again, it's been at least 6-7 years since I held the original and one of the bench copies but other than the 3-piece rib, brazed butt plate, and some other subtle differences between the original and the RS copy, the caliber/rifling difference was one of the biggies that stands out in my mind.  You can find a little additional info. on #15 here:  http://www.1803harpersferry.com/

Bob Hoyt did an examination of #15 and described it as having "ratchet" rifling, much different than the production rifling of later M1803 rifles.

These are interesting statements.  If you read the article by Keller and Cowan, in describing #15 they state, "At some point its firing mechanism was converted from flintlock to percussion, and the barrel was rebored to remove the rifling."

http://www.1803harpersferry.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/vol32no2p20-29.pdf

There is no way of knowing the original caliber of #15 or what type of rifling it originally had.  The barrel is a smoothbore now!
Phil Meek

Offline Skirmisher

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Well, that is interesting!!  I only relate what he told me.  Anyway, I have four Model 1803 Harper's Ferry rifles and three of the four were bored smooth.  One still has nice rifling (1814 dated short rifle) and it is a very tight .52 caliber, 7-groove, with the typical 7-sided bore appearance with wide lands and narrow deep grooves.  A .515" ball will fit, but my guess is that for ease of loading a somewhat smaller size was issued.  This rifle could not possibly be loaded with the .525" ball that all the books claim was the standard government rifle ball.

Offline Skirmisher

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Good article by Keller and Cowan.  They may be guilty of presuming that the dates on the locks of Harper's Ferry arms correspond to the date of the gun's manufacture, as it generally did at Springfield.  But at HF, that date is indicative only that the lock was finished that year.  HF usually got up a large stock of finished components before stockers went to work, and no attention was given to lock dates.  It is common occurrence on early HF arms to observe lock dates that clearly do not fit the gun's serial number, sometimes by a number of years.   A good number of rifle locks were made up in 1803, but not necessarily mounted until 1804 or 1805. 

Offline DaveM

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Does anybody know if this gun #15 shows signs that it had sling swivels?  I can't imagine that the hunters on the expedition would not have had slings.  The journals describe that the hunters went out on foot for miles and carried back large game. I can't tell from the photos.

Offline 120RIR

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Well now isn't THAT interesting?  Not that I claim expertise other than my general familiarity with #15 but a #12 out there is sure news to me!  As for the rifling and how Cowan and Keller came to the conclusion that the original caliber was so-and-so and the rifling was of a different type I do not know.  I'd have to ask but knowing them there was no guesswork involved in their conclusion.  When it comes to slings, I don't believe any of the M. 1803s were fitted for slings (someone may correct me on that) but I am positive #15 never had any sling provision.  There are notes for the Lewis and Clark expedition about them being provided with a number of slings but these would have been for the smoothbore muskets they also carried.  Further evidence for a wide variety of arms carried by the expedition can be found in the account of the three kinds of powder they had...rifle, musket, and cannon.

Offline smylee grouch

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If I remember right, there was an 1803 on display in the Cody Museum. Has this one been gone over for specifications, etc like #15?

Offline fm tim

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The Southern Arsenal by Hartzel and Whiskler  Old Bedford Press  Bedford, Pa 15522  1996
The United States Arsenal at Harper's Ferry
History, Personnel, number of Firearms manufactured by year, pictures by model number
He alludes to a book by Merritt Roe Smith about the technological aspects of arsenal production.
Harpers Ferry Armory and the New Technology. Cornell University Press. 1977. ISBN 978-0-8014-9181-8. (reprint 1980)

Offline Hungry Horse

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Years ago there was an article in the Buckskin Report regarding  an HF 1803 that surfaced in, or around, St. Louis that was a possible L&C gun. It differed from the standard model in several ways. One being it had a pewter nose cap, which either indicated it was different than the traditional 1803 HF,or  may have had the cap cast on after the fact, or may have been a fullstock originally. As I recall the patchbox differed a bit from the original 1803, and it had sling swivels.

  Hungry Horse

Mike463

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I wrote an article back in 2000 in "Muzzleloader" magazine entitled "The Short Rifles of the Lewis and Clark Expedition".
  First, the rifle that appeared in American Rifleman in an article by Kirk Olsen is not an 1803-1806 production variant, it has components from a Type II rifle (1814-1819 production). Research by Jess Melot of The Rifle Shoppe clearly shows the distinctions.
  Secondly, Harpers Ferry and Springfield Armories certainly never produced a rifle before the "short rifle" (also called "the iron ribbed rifle"), production which started with Lewis's visit in April 1803. This is borne out in numerous letters in official US government correspondance and arsenal lists of stores, which show only production for muskets and bayonets prior to 1803 (and were not talking about the incorrect 1822 records). How and why Carrick, Keller, and Cohan arrived at the "Model 1800" designation is beyond me. I have some doubts about the authenticity of the rifle they are promoting as a "Model 1800".

  There is no evidence that Lewis's rifles were equipped with slings, and those listed were for muskets, as evidenced in various letters of the expedition, government correspondance, and arsenal records (zero parts for rifles in stores, with the exception of 16 rifle sights). We also have drawings from Gass's journal. The art of St. Memin depicting Lewis holding a long rifle or fusee has sling swivels, and it's obviously not a military arm.

  As for Frank Tait's conjecture, he shows Model 1807 contract long rifles which were fitted with Harpers Ferry locks. These rifles were clearly made after the expedition, and in no way resemble the earlier contract long rifles of 1792, which originated from at least ten different contractors, made along their own personal styles, and were required only to be uniform in regards to having octogonal barrels of a certain length, thickness, and caliber. There are many letters attesting to the poor quality of these rifles, hence Dearborn's letter to Harpers Ferry arsenal master armorer Joseph Perkin to produce the "short rifle" (what we now call the Model 1803 Type I). I sincerely doubt Lewis would have picked out ten of the "best" 1792 era rifles, and only modify them by cutting them down, bore them to 30 balls to the pound, and add sling swivels. There is nothing in ordnance correspondence showing any such measures taking place (even before or after the expedition). More wishful thinking.
  As for the authenticity of the purported "Model 1800" and its association with the L&C Expedition, there are several glaring discrepancies. For example, the lockplate does not fit into the mortise (notice the gap). Also, there is a mortise for the brass ferrule on the forestock, which was not present on early Model 1803 rifles- this was suggested in December 1803, long after Meriwether Lewis departed Harpers Ferry with his rifles, locks and spare parts, tomahawks, long knives, and iron frame boat. The stock appears to be from a Type II rifle. This rifle may have an original lock and barrel, however other parts are not from an Type I 1803 rifle.
  Several years ago, a previous owner contacted me with the desire to examine his rifle. Unfortunately, I was out of state and could not meet him. As for forensic evidence, and given the fact that this rifle was advertised at auction for around $75,000, I propose that it be subject to non-destructive labratory analysis, to include dating the wood, x-ray of the markings, scoping the bore, chemical analysis of the metals, spectroscopy, etc., to actually determine its authenticity.   

 



« Last Edit: April 26, 2018, 01:05:33 AM by Mike463 »

Offline Don Stith

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I doubt the question of what rifles Lewis and Clark carried will ever be settled to everyones satisfaction/  I cannot find my copy of the Man at Arms magazine with Taits article to refresh my memory. My recollection is that he based it on  a few of the 1792 Contract rifles that were taken from stores at HF & relocked with HF locks. I was fortunate to get to handle a few of those that he located
  I remember two of them were signed Dickert and one was a Ferree
  They were claimed to have been issued for use in the war of 1812. They were all 40 balls to the pound.
as was specified in the 1792 contract The 1807 contract rifles were quite different in barrel configuration stock and hardware(Furniture) than these 1792 rifles
  I made several copies of the 1792's for use by fellows re-enacting the Expedition but no longer offer them

Mike463

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Don,
  I'm comparing parts on the purported Model 1800, and there are some differences from photo's of number 94. The rear sight does not match.

  I've seen some photo's of Type II rifles (1814-1819) that had serial numbers (one even marked "1"), obviously not an expedition rifle.

  I'm in the process of writing another article on the contract long rifles, problem areas, and why it led to production of the "short rifle", will let you know when it is finished.

Yours, Mike