Flintlock vs. Percussion for Reliability

[nosrettap1958]

well you get people like this, "I've been shooting black powder for 40 years and never used a nipple pick"  yea. that's probably why your rifle doesn't go off.

Or,

"I think these nipples are defective I need to drill them out so I don't get all those hang fires and misfires I've been getting lately." Have you tried buying a pick? 

The percussion crowd seems to me a whole lot less experienced. And there's the trouble.

[David R. Pennington]

Meshach Browning made his living hunting deer and bear in the wilderness on the Maryland / Virginia (now WV) border in the beginning of the 19th century. In his autobiography (fascinating reading) he relates an instance where he borrowed his son's caplock while his flintlock was being repaired. It had gotten "out of order". During a hunt he relates the difficulties  experienced with the cap buster, and spilling the caps out of the cap box and loosing them in the deep snow. He seemed anxious to get his flinter back.
If reliability is the only issue get an inline, or a cartrdge rifle.
The difference for me is like hearing a steam whistle. I'll run down to the grade to watch the steam locomotive go by but hardly turn my head for a droning diesel.
The steam loco properly maintained and run will still do the work it was intended for. Same for the flintlock, and both with much more grace and style than their modern replacements.

[Hungry Horse]

 The biggest reason the caplock replaced the flintlock, is simple economics. It took a highly trained technician a lot of time  to build a high quality flintlock, while a functioning caplock could be built very quickly by a craftsman with marginal skills.

  Hungry Horse

[Bob Roller]

The biggest reason the caplock replaced the flintlock, is simple economics. It took a highly trained technician a lot of time  to build a high quality flintlock, while a functioning caplock could be built very quickly by a craftsman with marginal skills.

  Hungry Horse

Makes sense to me.Compare a cap lock used on American rifles with a London made flint lock
and vast be the gulf that separates. Even with cast plates,cocks and frizzens the rest of the
lock is done by a craftsman long out of an apprentices training.The romanticized idea of hacking
plates,cocks and frizzens out of a chunk of iron is nonsense. Lynton McKenzie told me of seeing
superbly made wooden masters for use in fine sand casting for these high quality locks and the
castings produced were filed and detailed by skilled people or advanced apprentices and then
the mechanisms added by those who specialized in the needed skills.

Bob Roller

[Black Hand]

...get a quality flintlock...

By all appearances, people who have negative opinions about flintlocks probably had or knew someone who had a cheap production flintlock. The locks on these guns vary in their functionality, but on average, work OK and go off...mostly. Personally, I never owned a production flintlock but heard all the "warnings" against flintlocks in general when I was starting. Despite these "warnings", I built a flintlock from a reputable supplier and haven't had any issues...

[nosrettap1958]

The Reverend Alexander Forsyth, was a bird hunter and wanted a faster lock time and to reduce the flash from the pan, which startled the birds.

I guess this is like a Chevy enthusiast going to a Mustang convention. You're not welcome here.

[nosrettap1958]

Historically, the caplock had such a brief period of popularity that was smashed between the long history of the flintlock and the rise of self contained cartridges that it was in the context of the history of firearms like a blink of an eye. 

But one fascinating part of the caplock was the rise of the English hunter exploring the vast remote areas of Africa and India with their Purdey and Westley Richards among others double barreled rifles. Fascinating reading.

[bob in the woods]

I have found my flintlock firearms to be exceptionally reliable.  The cap locks are wonderful , but reliability depends on a number of things [ as does a flintlock ].  Breaching type, lock springs, lock type.  My fastest and most reliable cap lock rifle is an under hammer.
However, even it has suffered from less than reliable caps at times.

[Standing Bear]

"I guess this is like a Chevy enthusiast going to a Mustang convention. You're not welcome here."


WRONG. But if you've not spent any time with a good flintlock or Ford, you'll not personally know you'll just be following someone else who may not have learned from experience but from others spouting misinformation.
TC

[wattlebuster]

The few time that I have actually driven to a shoot which for me is a long drive I saw it with my own eyes an heard it with my own ears. The few flint guns that were there (5 or 6 including mine. The rest were cap locks) were lots more reliable firing than some of the cap guns. The caps would pop but no boom. My flinters fire reliably AS LONG as there is a good sharp flint in the jaws. Its up to you to learn when to change /sharpen a flint an if it misfire due to that it not the guns fault

[Hungry Horse]

 I have a question for Mr. Roller. Years ago I bought a bunch of old surplus percussion hammers, and tumblers from Turner Kirkland. They came from some long forgotten warehouse in Europe, and knowing Turner he got them for scrap price. The hammers, and tumblers, showed all the signs of being drop forged. Was this common, or was this a procedure that came into being on the tail end of the percussion era?

 Hungry Horse

[Dave Patterson]

"I think these nipples are defective I need to drill them out so I don't get all those hang fires and misfires I've been getting lately." Have you tried buying a pick? 

The percussion crowd seems to me a whole lot less experienced. And there's the trouble.

I'm sure most of the first-time ML buyers gravitate to percussion, thinking they'll be "easier" or "more reliable":  I know I did, and that's what the chain stores all have hanging in stock, for just that reason.

And, not having anyone around to show me how and why to properly clean the breech of the rifle(s) I had was another big issue:  despite my best efforts at picking, cleaning, etc, I had to learn a lot of what works, and why, right here, as folks posted threads that pertained to the breech designs I actually had in my rack, and I'm sure that had/has a lot to do with the comparative reliability I see in my rifles.  Some of the factory production guns designed to target the entry-level market come with breeches that just almost CAN'T be accessed with a pick or a scraper, and they're GOING to plug up pretty quick.

Another issue I have, personally, is the quality of lock design and their internal parts, in my own percussion rifles, compared to the flint locks I've been buying since I decided to try going that route:  coil springs and pot metal internals just ain't agonna match up to a Chambers or Long lock, and that all goes right back to the inexperienced first-time buyer with no Black Powder Daddy standing right next to him at the gun store:  those El Cheapo brand imports LOOK like they should work, so...   

[smart dog]

Hi,
Back in the 1830s, the British Board of Ordnance worked on developing and testing percussion ignition for their small arms.  They did a lot of testing that compared the accuracy and performance of flint and percussion small arms under field conditions.  Their results overwhelmingly supported percussion ignition with respect to both accuracy and reliability under battle conditions.  The gain in accuracy was because of little loss of gas pressure from percussion locks and fast and hot ignition compared with flintlocks.  However, they also noted that loading and then capping was slower than priming and loading a flintlock. They also noted that percussion guns performed much better during wet conditions.  Nonetheless, the results were for shooting under battle conditions in which the guns were rough handled and little time was spent on care between shots.  Today, we are not fighting battles with muzzleloaders and we usually have time to care for our guns, to clean vent holes, dress flints, wipe pans and frizzens, have coned vent liners in our barrels, etc.  All of which helps make flintlocks very reliable.  In addition, my impression is that flintlock shooters tend to know more about their guns and effects of weather conditions than many percussion gun shooters.  Many neophyte muzzleloader shooters choose percussion first and their inexperience tends to bias results of comparisons with flintlock shooters.  Anyway, the components in the ignition system are more accessible to flint shooters and problems are easier to fix compared with percussion locks and breeches.  With care, flintlocks are easily as reliable as percussion locks and any loss of accuracy due to gas escape is probably very small provided ignition is hot and quick.  Flintlocks are also just a lot more fun to shoot.

dave         

[Mike Brooks]

I was lucky as my first flint gun I built myself with a siler lock, it was always dependable as all my flintlocks have been. If I pull the trigger and they don't go off it's my fault, one sort of neglect or another due to pure laziness.
 I have had percussion guns, they work fine, but you have to keep the breeches very clean....sort of like a flint gun I suppose, "some maintenance required" .
 Now, when it starts to rain I just go home and don't worry about ignition, cap or flint.....

[nosrettap1958]

Let me put it this way, all things being equal, including the experience of the operators,  you want to tell me with a straight face the flinter is equal.

Bull.

[David R. Pennington]

Of course not, it is far superior!

[little joe]

With all the modern tech. we got has no tests been ran on flint vs. cap lock time?

[Mike Brooks]

Let me put it this way, all things being equal, including the experience of the operators,  you want to tell me with a straight face the flinter is equal.

Bull.

With similar experience levels I'd say yes, no doubt. Oh, and this caveat, the flint gun has to be built by a competent flintlock gun builder with a properly built high quality lock and a correctly installed vent liner.

[Daryl]

With all the modern tech. we got has no tests been ran on flint vs. cap lock time?

It has been done - one (person) only has to shoot them both, to see the difference. A very fast flinter is slower than a even a cheap cap gun.

When shooting trap with a caplock shotgun compared to a flinter, if you shoot the flinter the same as the cap-lock, you will hit VERY few birds in comparison - this is due entirely to lock time.

The cap gun is shot the same as if you were shooting a modern gun, that is on catching the bird, you slap the trigger as the front sight or bead touches the bird. The speed of the swing will automatically give you the proper lead s the gun passes the bird on the continued swing. 
With a flinter, you have to pass the bird by a foot or more before slapping the trigger.  The lock on my smoothbore is a very nice fast firing Siler lock.
Slapping the trigger on the bird the same as done with a cap-lock, will guarantee a miss. Yet, I've easily shot 10 straight with the flinter, by passing the bird by a foot before slapping the trigger. Much, of course, depends on the bird's direction of travel. I am referring to shots about 45 to 65 degree angles. The lead gets shorter with tighter angles to 90 degrees, but then up and down, climbing or dropping comes more into the equation.

[Mike Brooks]

Hmmm, not doubting you but my skeet scores are all the same, flint, cap and cartridge, makes no difference. I don't think I make any allowances for lock time.

And yes, cap guns are faster than flint. But, I've shot some awfully fast flint guns in my time.

[Dennis Glazener]

Let me put it this way, all things being equal, including the experience of the operators,  you want to tell me with a straight face the flinter is equal.

Bull.

I will say that for me and my experience, with both percussion and flint, the guns that I have built/owned with Chambers Flintlocks have been as dependable or more so than the percussion's that I have owned. I have used mostly late Ketland locks on rifles and the Colonial Virginia on fowlers, also a couple of Early Ketlands on early rifles. My hunting rifle has a regular Siler and I believe that lock would almost ignite under water, it is VERY dependable I can not remember the last time it miss-fired.

I will not say that about other flintlocks that I have used. One or two have been fairly good but many of them have been terrible and very undependable and I will not mention the makers.

Now most of the percussion's that I have owned had drum and nipple which is not the ideal set-up for dependability and I will admit that I built one of Don Stith's squirrel rifles with a Hawken style breech and it was very dependable.
Dennis

[Bob Roller]

I have a question for Mr. Roller. Years ago I bought a bunch of old surplus percussion hammers, and tumblers from Turner Kirkland. They came from some long forgotten warehouse in Europe, and knowing Turner he got them for scrap price. The hammers, and tumblers, showed all the signs of being drop forged. Was this common, or was this a procedure that came into being on the tail end of the percussion era?

 Hungry Horse

HH,
I don't know when drop forged parts came to common use but I would
guess that Europe was ahead of us industrially at that time. There were
a lot of locks imported that sold for little money. Turner had a LOT of
these when I worked there in the HOT summer of 1958 and I cleaned
and made them operational.These were all caplocks.

Bob Roller

[snapper]

Cory

I have quite few percussion rifles and shotguns, and I love them.   

I have owned a couple of flintlocks and have in the past year picked up a .40 and a .54 that I had built for me.

I love both flintlocks and both are very well made.

Making my transition to flinters has been a little difficult.  The lock time is much slower than percussion and I need to practice more with them.  I cant shoot very well with them off hand, but my time to do so is so limited it is not the fault of the rifles.

I love my flinters and I hope to become a much better flintlock shooter. 

A percussion gun is easier for me to shoot accurately.

Fleener

[satwel]

Based on my experience competing at NMLRA territorial matches for almost 20 years, IMHO, the only shooters I see struggling with misbehaving rifles are the percussion shooters.

[Nordnecker]

Having never shot a percussion, I can't offer any first hand experience. I have had the opportunity to allow several people to shoot a flintlock for the first time. Before shooting, they told me about the "delay" they expected. After shooting, they all said something like, "Man, That went off so fast. I wasn't expecting it."
But I think it probably had more to do with the trigger. Right or wrong, I always try to get a very light pull with the set trigger. I try to get a good pull set or unset.
Since I started shooting my flintlocks, I've done more target shooting than I ever did before. I get used to "My" triggers. When I shoot someone elses' gun, I really have to get used to their trigger pull. This is super evident with production guns. I can't believe how hard I have to squeeze the trigger sometimes.