Original Southern, TN-style, Maker?

[WadePatton]

It's signed but the signature defies lifting or decipher so far.  I didn't try this time. I did get some crappy photos-I had other things on my mind when visiting and next time I'll do a better job of gathering pics.

Any comments whatsoever are appreciated. The entire lock area was replaced as it was beyond any sort of lesser repairs.  The rest appears to be original. I didn't take any measurements.

I'm not sure about the lock, but that most of the rest of it is original and hope that someone here has seen a similar collection of features.  I completely forgot to get shots of the signature. It was signed on the top flat in script, I think a "J" maybe discernible. Apologies for the crappy shots, but here they are. Sharing is caring. 

Also, copper pipes.  Yes, when the weather is less great, I can do a better job of "cataloging" the measurements and get some decent pics. Just wasn't after that info that day.

[bgf]

Nice one.

Looks like the rearmost barrel pin is ahead of the entry pipe?

Copper pipes?  Any sign that entry pipe was added and others replaced at some point?  The entry pipe style is a new one to me...for this type of rifle.

The butt is relattively wide and the comb long and low, with a fairly short return on the buttplate.  Those features along with the trigger guard etc. make me lean towards earlier 1800s rather than later, even with the long tang, but I'm not ready to risk any more.

Looking forward to more and better pictures and measurements!

[n stephenson]

Wade, Cool Rifle! Not saying that it is , but the lock resembles a Barker Whately  lock by Larry Zornes . Like you said , the balance appears to be original. Nice Find!   Nate

[Robin Henderson]

I think I know this rifle. Does it reside in or around Coffee County, Tennessee? If it does then I've always had a little fascination for this gun. It's certainly worthy to be photographed and measured.

[Mike Brooks]

Whopper of a cheek piece. Where'd you get that book? I don't get out much so it's probably common and I'm too stupid to know it.
 First casual  impression...it reminds me of a Bull, but they worked in NC and Bamy.

[bgf]

Wade, Cool Rifle! Not saying that it is , but the lock resembles a Barker Whately  lock by Larry Zornes . Like you said , the balance appears to be original. Nice Find!   Nate

I don't know, at first I thought it was a new lock, but the B-W is similar to the original one on the Bogel rifle in size and design, so this one might be similar.  If I recall correctly, the BW doesn't have a fly, which made it difficult to use with double lever set triggers, for the purpose I was researching; easy to check.  Coffee county, Tennessee wouldn't be shocking place of origin for something like this rifle if it has some provenance...

[Dennis Glazener]

Whopper of a cheek piece. Where'd you get that book? I don't get out much so it's probably common and I'm too stupid to know it.
 First casual  impression...it reminds me of a Bull, but they worked in NC and Bamy.

Mike you don't have to get out much, just keep an eye on the "Recent Book" forum here on ALR. That's Dave Byrd's first book Gunmakers of Buffalo Valley & Greasy Cove shown here : http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=22261.0

His second book East Tennessee Hog Rifles is shown here: http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=40406.0

David is one of the most knowledgeable people around on East TN/Western NC guns and also knows a lot about many other southern guns. Heck of a nice guy on top of that. Here is his address. Sorry but David does not have a website nor does he use email.

David Byrd
129 Ridgewood Rd
Unicoi, TN 37692

Dennis

[WadePatton]

I think I know this rifle. Does it reside in or around Coffee County, Tennessee? If it does then I've always had a little fascination for this gun. It's certainly worthy to be photographed and measured.

Yes, you are on target.  I'll be a Good Cowboy and get a better bunch of data and images next time.  I just don't get down there as much as I should. But things may be a changin'. 

The other pipes are plain loops of copper.  I'll find out about the lock and of course get better pics and make some measurements.  The bbl is heavy and swamped.

Mike and others interested in TN stuff: There are actually TWO Dave Byrd books there.  I picked up the first one at the Museum of Appalachia a couple of years back. The second one (spiral bound and open) is East TN Hog Rifles and is the latest publication by Mr. Byrd. 

ORDER yours today! 


book thread: http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=40407.0

Thanks Dennis, we got that book thing covered! Dave is good people.

[Cades Cove Fiddler]

  ... WOW ... good to see hidden Southern rifles ... !!! ...  Mike is right in that I have seen those lock side-plates used by John Bull ...Long barrel tang reminds me of Henderson Co. NC ... ending in more oval "doll head" than round, Tennessee "lollipop" ( what you think, Dennis ??)... that wide, unusual trigger-guard stumps me ...later (1810-1900's) Tennessee guards weren't that wide on the grip rail ... Rectangular "taller box" also speaks North Carolina to me ....I have a late Middle Tennessee rifle with two brass and one copper ramrod pipes,..also a copper nose cap ... !!.. Thanx for posting ... She is a nice, interesting rifle ....

[JTR]

Sooooo, is the front part actually original to the back part?

Curiously, John

[Dennis Glazener]

Mike is right in that I have seen those lock side-plates used by John Bull ...Long barrel tang reminds me of Henderson Co. NC ... ending in more oval "doll head" than round, Tennessee "lollipop" ( what you think, Dennis ??)...

I think it looks NC. the tang and also the triggers, and the rectangular grease hole are similar to ones I have seen on western NC rifles. The squared off trigger guard forward and rear return more NC than TN. The side plate looks more TN but who knows for sure.

[Robin Henderson]

Sooooo, is the front part actually original to the back part?

Curiously, John

As far as I know the gun is mostly an original. Notice I said mostly. When the owner got it the lock panel and lock were gone. Evidence, that is a touch hole, indicated it being flint. The lock is modern. The panel area was replaced with a splice which you can see in a couple of the pics.

[Hungry Horse]

I agree with Dennis, about the NC features. I think it might be quite hard to figure out where the old ends, and the new begins, on this gun. It almost looks like a very plain gun got some upgrades from other old SMR wrecks from various Southern regions.

  Hungry Horse

[WElliott]

To further confuse things, the bolt washers, entry pipe and decorative filing and shape of the guard extensions suggest Bull influence. Other elements do not   Perhaps either the  maker travelled a bit or it may be an amalgam of parts.

[Hlbly]

This definitely shows some Bull characteristics. Poor choice on the lock and the work around it.

[JTR]

Sooooo, is the front part actually original to the back part?

Curiously, John

As far as I know the gun is mostly an original.
 The panel area was replaced with a splice which you can see in a couple of the pics.

Just curious. The lock being new is a given as is the wood work around it.
However in some of the other pictures it looks like the wood grain is running one way in the butt end around the big crack/splice area, and is running in a different direction in the wood on the forward side of the crack/splice.
A back part being attached to a different guns front part certainly isn't unknown, and would answer why the gun seems to be made by other than one maker.
Do you have any pictures of that area, or do you remember any difference in grain orientation? 
If the gun is all original except the lock and that wood around it, someone ought to redo that area and put a more typical lock in it.
John

[Robin Henderson]

Maybe Wade would answer your questions as he was the last one to handle it. I personally didn't notice anything unusual about the gun except for the lock area repair. That was, of course, with my untrained eye. I might be able to convince the owner to bring it to the Alabama or Knoxville show so some of the experts could pass judgement on it.

[WadePatton]

Thanks for the interest and comments and inquiries (and replies) on this one.  I expect to be back that way in a week or two and will get another set of pics. I'll also discuss the inquiries that have arisen and see what else is known. 

I'll post in this thread.

Yes, the length of the stock is continuous but for the lock section-at my best recollection and I've handled this one a few times.

[Sequatchie Rifle]

Someone mentioned Coffee County- what would make you think that? Is there a distinguishing characteristic associated with Coffee County? Just wondering as I am familiar with Coffee County and seen many rifles from that neck of the woods and haven't noticed any.

[WadePatton]

Someone mentioned Coffee County- what would make you think that? Is there a distinguishing characteristic associated with Coffee County? Just wondering as I am familiar with Coffee County and seen many rifles from that neck of the woods and haven't noticed any.

The rifle currently resides there, has nothing to do with the origin as far as I know.  It's not my gun.

[bgf]

Someone mentioned Coffee County- what would make you think that? Is there a distinguishing characteristic associated with Coffee County? Just wondering as I am familiar with Coffee County and seen many rifles from that neck of the woods and haven't noticed any.

When someone said the rifle was in coffee county, I said it wouldn't be surprising if it originated there.  That was not based on a local characteristic (I don't know what they might be there exactly) but rather the apparent period of the iron hardware and the fact that it shares some features with other areas.  My reasoning is that that a large region east of Nashville was settled a bit later than it would have been otherwise (about the right time for the iron hardware) due to disputes with the original owners, so you might see rifles that look like they came from somewhere else and/or a mix of features because the owners and the gunsmiths did in fact come from somewhere else when land opened up.  That area continues to provide surprises and nice rifles when records and provenance exist.  Just an observation.

Like the Bull rifles, which would likely be attributed entirely to upper East Tennessee, if we didn't know some were made in Alabama.