Define "easy to load"

[hanshi]

In my view a muzzleloader is a "one shot affair" and fast loading is more fantasy than real, at least in my case.  Shoot once and miss and the deer usually leaves before the second load is seated and the gun is primed.  If I shoot a deer I get as shaky as a soiled dove in church.  I consider it a success if I don't spill the reload, manage to get the prime somewhere in the vicinity of the pan and remember to seat a patched ball.  Forget three shots per minute; I'm lucky if I get ONE shot in THREE minutes.  I naturally fumble so you should see me when I'm excited and fumble.

For these reasons I load for accuracy, use a short starter and load rather tight combos.

[John Ciccone]

The answers thus given make sense to me. On the first occasion I took a muzzle loader into the field,
I was scouting, And shot at a mark to make sure my estimation was good sighting.

I then took a clean DRY patch and ran it down the bore to clear out some of the fouling. When I tried to retract the ram rod it was thoroughly stuck.  ( @!*% it, i knew I should have used a wet patch.)
Trying to figure out what to to, I finally settled on peeing down the barrel. The patch retracted easily. While I would not recommend this as a cleaning solvent, it worked. And I would not define this as an "easy to load" way of doing things.
Best regards, JC

[smylee grouch]

At some ranges they don't want you to blow down the barrel but they don't mention peeing down the bore. You might want to check the rule book before you start. 

[Bob Roller]

   Is there any documentation of 18th century riflemen carrying longrifles using a short starter and or mallet.

The late Tom Dawson told me that most old guns that still had a mould with them showed a ball
of at least two calibers undersize and some barrel coning that helped. The tight or slightly over size ball/patch
combination was a later development for target shooting.I used the tight ball/patch loads for all round ball
target shooting for several years.Under conditions where faster reloading may be a life or death situation I
would not be fussy about using an undersize ball.The late Burt Lancaster made a movie that had a scene where he ran adross
water while an enemy was getting a flintlock loaded and I THINK the "bad guy" shot the ram rod in that scene.
I would think a short starter would be no value in the day when the long rifle meant life.death or meat in the pot.

Bob Roller

[Daryl]

   Is there any documentation of 18th century riflemen carrying longrifles using a short starter and or mallet.

Not in the Americas. Couple of early references in Europe when using a oversized lead ball, and a German reference for a short starter from around 1780 or so. In the 19th century they start showing up.

No, the mallet used with the Baker rifle was not a short starter per se- they only issued it to every second rifleman, and it had a lanyard in the handle, per De Witte Bailey.

The British soldier also used an "iron peg" for starting a tightly patched ball. Reference in British Military Flintlock Rifles 1740-1840 - I don't remember the page- but did read that - AND noted it here on the forum some time ago, ver-batum.

[Daryl]

When well practiced, many years ago and using paper ctgs. (165gr. 2F and WW ball) with caps on a circular 'capper', I was able to load and fire an aimed shot in 8 seconds after firing the first shot, using my single barreled .69 cal. rifle.  I did not try to fire 3 in a minute, but suggest that would be VERY easy to do with this loading method. 

The first bull moose I shot with this rifle, took one (pure lead, patched ball) in the shoulder which staggered him a step sideways, back legs buckled, then he stood up and turned the other shoulder to me, the second shot (WW ball) hit him through the ribs, traversed both lungs making a 3" diameter hole through both, then smashed the offside leg below where the first shot had gone through that leg bone, but higher up.  The second ball stopped against the hide. That was enough for him.

Obviously the 3" hole through the lungs was made by the shock-wave, as the ball was barely riveted slightly.

The first shot hit too much timber (willow) & had slowed before striking him & failed to enter the chest after going through the upper leg bone(shoulder).  It sickened him, but that shot would not have been fatal for some time had he been able to run away (still standing on all 4 legs, even though the right shoulder was broken & he needed that second shot.  The second shot only clipped off 4 or 5 willows, up to an inch in diameter. I must note here, that I did not see the willows between him and me - guess I was excited. That both balls hit willows was evident by the sound of the ball striking them - boomdddddddddddddddddddddddddddthuck! That was the first shot. That the hit him, was most unlucky for him & quite lucky for me.  It allowed a second shot. The second shot only went boomdddthuck

To load these paper ctgs. no starter was used or needed, however I did have to choke up on the rod to get it started as they were quite snug and could not be thumb started. The accuracy was identical to patched round balls when tested at 50 and 100 yards. Roger B., Bob in the Woods and Dphar, all of this site, can all attest to the accuracy of snug fitting paper ctgs.
The wadded up paper ctg. between the snug fitting paper patched round ball effectively sealed the powder flame and gasses beneath the ball. No- the paper ctg. did not catch fire - confetti was all that was issued from the muzzle, I assume, due to the muzzle blast. Never, did the paper burn.  Roger was able to collect some fired paper ctgs. form his 12 bore, which showed rifling marks on the paper.

[Elnathan]

   Is there any documentation of 18th century riflemen carrying longrifles using a short starter and or mallet.

Not in the Americas. Couple of early references in Europe when using a oversized lead ball, and a German reference for a short starter from around 1780 or so. In the 19th century they start showing up.

No, the mallet used with the Baker rifle was not a short starter per se- they only issued it to every second rifleman, and it had a lanyard in the handle, per De Witte Bailey.

The British soldier also used an "iron peg" for starting a tightly patched ball. Reference in British Military Flintlock Rifles 1740-1840 - I don't remember the page- but did read that - AND noted it here on the forum some time ago, ver-batum.

I'll have to look for that.  IIRC, there was an English manual that described an iron short starter from the 18th century - the problem is that it was a straight plagiarism from a much earlier French manual describing the use of an oversized ball w/o patch. Evidently the British writer knew nothing about rifles but thought that his manual would be incomplete without some mention of their use, so he simply copied and translated someone else's work.

Edited to add: Are you talking about this post, Daryl? http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=35363.msg340536#msg340536

[smylee grouch]

The paper used in those paper cartridges didn't burn , thats interesting to me as I have never used a paper ctg. but did use a paper towel this last spring and that did indeed burn. What kind of paper do you guys use for these paper ctgs.? I would like to try them in my 62 flinter  for follow up shots.

[Daryl]

I lucked out as the paper I used gave me a very tight fit to the bore., I used white wood glue when making the ctgs.

Due, I suppose, to the 165gr. powder charges I used in these, the paper was shredded - blown to confetti, but never caught fire.

Apparently, some guys have dipped the 'ball' end in melted lube. I shot mine dry, no lube and could shoot 10 ctgs. with same accuracy,

before having to shoot a cleaning shot. This cleaning shot was comprised of a wet, cloth-patched round ball, loaded with 3 drams of powder.

This effectively cleaned the bore, allowing another 10 paper ctgs. to be fired. As to durability, I have carried loaded ctgs. in my parka pocket all

hunting season without any damage to them.

[smylee grouch]

What kind of paper did you use Daryl?  News paper,brown paper bag, typing paper, or what?

[Daryl]

Elnathan - yes- I think that is the excerpt I was thinking about.

Sorry, thought the paper info was in my last posting.

I used 20 pound printing paper for my computer.  Back then, it had holes in the side borders.  Varying weights/thicknesses can be used to get a snug fit. 

As well, the small end (I used tapered ctgs.) was torn off with my teeth, then that small end was shoved into the bore. By the time I got the rod out, the

powder had drained from the ctg. into the breech of the vertical rifle. The ball in the paper ctg. was then shoved down the bore. NOTE - it was tight enough

in the muzzle that it had to be started down the bore with the end of the rod, choked up on with my right hand and deliberately started an inch or so down.

Then, it could be shoved down the rest of the way to the breech with one shove.  The ball was not removed from the ctg. and the paper was not shoved down on top of the

ball as I have seen on TV- ridiculous at that was. I laughed out loud when I saw it. That is most likely to ignite the paper. The way I load, was the way the

militaries of the world loaded from what I have been able to glean. The paper is waded up beneath the ball and effectively seals the powder gasses behind it.

The paper ctg. encasing the ball would not allow the ball to roll out the bore.  I should note there, that when loading paper ctgs. with bullets for the rifled military arms,

the bullet was removed from the paper ctg. after pouring the powder down the bore, then the bullet (called a ball) was rammed rammed down the bore.  Then 3 strokes

of the rod being "thrown onto the ball" ensured the bullet was on the powder. This throwing of the rod onto the ball (BULLET) also likely expanded the skirts of the ball(bullet)

to hold it in the bore, with the paper being discarded.

I MOST seriously resist accepting that the round ball from my ctgs. has any chance of obturating as they are brinel 13, straight Canadian WW, not pure lead, ie: brinel 5- yet

the power gases and flame is effectively sealed behind the ball by the compacted paper.  The wadding of 2" of paper tube does this quite well, it appears.  So far, in shooting

probably over 100 of these, never has one caught fire. This is not to say it could not happen to someone else, shooting a different rifle, with their materials and sizes, etc. 

Roger B. , a number of years ago, found these paper ctgs. worked well down to about calibre .54.    I suggest the increasing pressure of the smaller calibers effected the

sealing properties of the paper ctgs. and effected accuracy.  Just as the small the bore size, the tighter the ball/patch fit must be to obtain the best accuracy. This is due

 to  the increased pressures generated.  I tis also a reason why a lot of shooters, it seems, who demand to be able to start the patched ball without a short starter, have

such fouling problems with the smaller bores, especially the .32's.  I found the .32 though .40 gave easier loading for the 50th shot than the first. That was using bore sized

and just over bore sized balls with mink oil and .022" or thicker patching.  Easy loading, all day, no wiping (& no blowing) necessary.

here are some examples of ctgs. RB and bullet.

[smylee grouch]

Daryl, thanks for the explanation. Are those round ball loads sealed on the ball end with wax or white glue or some thing else?

[Daryl]

Looks like wax in the picture. I used glue & no wax or lube.  I also used tapered paper cases, made on a tapered dowel. They were easier to handle and to tear off the end without wasting or dropping powder.

[Daryl]

Here are some I made up for the India Pattern Bess I owned for a short time.
Also, the cross section and finished ctg. are original in design - I did not make those.
Appears I put a small slip of masking tape over the ends of these - there are many
options for closure - use your imagination and see how they shoot.

[smylee grouch]

Thanks Daryl, I think I've seen those pics of the cartridges before. Food for thought and gives me some ideas.

[Daryl]

The oxidized buck and balls were found, dug up I suspect, on some long-ago battle field in the States. I do not know if they were from the 1770 to 1840 era or not. I suspect they preceeded the civil war, however, there may have been some musket fire there, in the early stages.  These of course, would be from 'dropped' ctgs, the paper and powder long gone.

[OldMtnMan]

Something that I never understood makes sense now.

Bottom line.........If your muzzle isn't coned and you can start the ball/patch with your thumb and then push it down with two fingers. You don't have a tight load no matter what lube you use.

[Pukka Bundook]

When I got my Chambers Mark Silver rifle going, (.58) I got a mould that threw a .562" and never had any trouble thumb starting or accuracy wise.
I do use tightly woven linen though.  (Like to hold it up to the light, and if you can't see through it, that part is good.)
A ball bumps up when fired, and though I only ever used 70 grs of 2F Go in it, it always seemed to bring home the bacon.  Used it 9 years straight and nothing else.
Someone mentioned a .526 in a .54, and that is exactly what I used as well when I had one.

Best regards
Richard.

[bob in the woods]

My .54 took a very nice black bear on Monday morning.  Paper cartridge, 100 gr FFg and a .527 round ball [ Lee mold ]    >54 is about the smallest bore that I've had success with these cartridges.  Printer paper , and a tapered dowel . I dip the ball end in a mix of bear oil and bees wax. Watch the grain of the paper when making these, or tearing off the end could be troublesome. 

[hanshi]

Define "easy to load"; okay.  My one and only answer to the specific question is that if I can seat the prb with the wood, underbarrel rod and not worry about the rod breaking, the load is "easy to load".

[Eddie Southgate]

The oxidized buck and balls were found, dug up I suspect, on some long-ago battle field in the States. I do not know if they were from the 1770 to 1840 era or not. I suspect they preceeded the civil war, however, there may have been some musket fire there, in the early stages.  These of course, would be from 'dropped' ctgs, the paper and powder long gone.

   I have dug Buck and Ball on every Civil War site I've been on . Seems that they may have been used in rifled muskets as well as the smooth bore variety and shotguns . The Nashville battle was December 15-16th of 1864 , not what I would call early stages .

    Eddie

[Eddie Southgate]

 My easy is starts down the barrel with the short starter without having to pound on it then the rest of the way with the ramrod in one smooth push . I push on the short starter but I don't hit it . If you have to hit the starter it ain't an easy loading load to me . Usually use a .590 dead soft ball and .015 patch in my .50 cal.  55 grains of FF for target and 65 grains for hunting seems to always do the job . YMMV .

  Eddie

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Defining "easy to load" is impossible.  Some can draw a 100 pound bow effortlessly.  Others find 40 pounds the extreme of their limit.

[smylee grouch]

Every ones perspective or definition of ease is different I guess. I personaly don't mind a little extra effort to load so my take on it would be quite different than some others it seems.

[Daryl]

My easy is starts down the barrel with the short starter without having to pound on it then the rest of the way with the ramrod in one smooth push . I push on the short starter but I don't hit it . If you have to hit the starter it ain't an easy loading load to me . Usually use a .590 dead soft ball and .015 patch in my .50 cal.  55 grains of FF for target and 65 grains for hunting seems to always do the job . YMMV .

  Eddie

I'm surprised you could get that .590" ball started with just pushing it, even without a patch.
Do believe you meant .490".
Much depends on the person, for sure.