Longrifles cut back for bayonet

[Pennsylvania Dutchman]

I posted here sometime back, some photos of a smoothrifle that I am building. I am building it to approximate what my 4th great grandfather, Valentin Bohlich, would have owned and possibly carried during his service in the 6th battalion of the Philadelphia County militia in the American Revolution. In the book, Moravian Gun Making of the American Revolution, on pages 56-63, there is a longrifle attributed to Andreas Albrecht. The rifle has the fore stock cut back for a bayonet and has a Bess upper trumpet ramrod pipe and a Bess ramrod. In a second book, Don Troiani's Soldiers of the American Revolution, on page 92, there is a single photo of a longrifle, attributed to possibly Lehigh or Bucks county, with a side opening patchbox with Liberty or Dethe engraved on it. This rifle has a full round or octagon to round barrel, the fore stock has been cut for a bayonet, and also has a Bess trumpet upper ramrod pipe and steel ramrod. It has had a nosecap reinstalled when the stock was cut back. I have been thinking about cutting the fore stock back on my smoothrifle build and adding a Bess trumpet upper pipe and a Bess ramrod. I don't know how common a modification this would have been originally, I have only seen these two examples in print. Would this mod be adding too much fantasy to my build?
Thanks, Mark

[JV Puleo]

I have handled at least 2 NE rifles that had the end of the barrel turned round, the stock cut back and a bayonet lug fitted. These were, of course, later than the Revolution but it did happen, at least then. Whether this was done at the time of the Revolution is still a question... since these are modifications we presume were made after the gun was made how can we tell when they were done? Personally, I suspect they were more likely to have been done after 1792 when the militia acts kicked in and there was a huge arms shortage.

[Mike Brooks]

 That metal rod will trash your crown and rifling real quick.

[Pennsylvania Dutchman]

That metal rod will trash your crown and rifling real quick.

Mike, My barrel is .62 cal smoothbore.
Thanks, Mark

[Pennsylvania Dutchman]

I have handled at least 2 NE rifles that had the end of the barrel turned round, the stock cut back and a bayonet lug fitted. These were, of course, later than the Revolution but it did happen, at least then. Whether this was done at the time of the Revolution is still a question... since these are modifications we presume were made after the gun was made how can we tell when they were done? Personally, I suspect they were more likely to have been done after 1792 when the militia acts kicked in and there was a huge arms shortage.

JV, Very interesting! I went back and reread some of the text on the Albrecht rifle and Steve Hench the author and owner, stated that he didn't know if the gun was modified for the Continental soldier that it was captured from or the British officer that took it back to England. He suspected, that by the crudeness of the modification, that is was done for the Continental soldier. He also stated that it was the only longrifle that he knew of that was modified both for a bayonet and a metal ramrod. In the text on the other rifle I mentioned, the author just assumes that it is from the American Revolution. That rifle is from the collection of Richard Ulbrich.
Thank you, Mark

[rich pierce]

This is one of those dramatic customizations. Has some wow factor. If it appeals to you, go for it!

[Jeff Stewart]

On the KRA cd, volume I, issue X, Rifles of York & Adams Counties, rifle #8 by Jacob Doll shows the barrel modified to mount a bayonet although it retains the wooden ramrod.  I always thought that was a very interesting gun with a story to tell.

[bob in the woods]

Whenever I hear the phrase " wow factor"  , I cringe .    Just too much of that going on IMO   From a practical point of view, cut back for a bayonet if you like, but keep the wooden rod.  Just one opinion among millions 

[Mike Brooks]

That metal rod will trash your crown and rifling real quick.

Mike, My barrel is .62 cal smoothbore.
Thanks, Mark

Doesn't matter, it will still ruin it. I built a fella a Hudson Valley Fowling gun with a 11 bore 50" barrel. He had a 3/8" steel rod made to fit the RR pipes and insisted on using it to load, against my repeated warnings. Sure enough, he come up to me all pissy one day and said his gun wouldn't shoot anymore. I could see the bore was all out of round so I sent it to Getz and told him to cut it back until he got to a round bore again. 2" were cut off and now it shoots again. He still uses the steel rod.... I suppose we'll cut of another 2" off sometime.
 You'll see this a lot on antique SXS shot guns that have seen some use, bores out of round from RR wear. I have never had an old one that would shoot good patterns until 5/8" or so was trimmed from the muzzle.

[45-110]

i have shot thousands of rounds in competition using a metal ramrod in both .58 musket and my 1803 harpers ferry. have not experienced a damaged bore, crown or loss of accuracy. a gritty wooden rod could do worse over time. have seen some shooters slam steel rods down excessively to seat a charge, which could be detrimental to the bore.

[B.Habermehl]

The J P Beck that's at the Danville historical society museum has the forend cut back for bayonet use. The piece of forend along with the nose cap is fitted to the extra heavy lug on the bottom of the barrel along with locating pins in both the forend and the nose piece making it removable for militia use with a bayonet. Having had the privilege of taking this apart it was obvious to me why. The bottom lug was definitely a bayonet lug. The remaining forend piece was preserved, and modified to be reinstalled. This was definitely a well thought out and executed period of use conversion. My thought is this work dates to the war of 1812. The short piece of the forend is definitely original and matches the rest of the forend perfectly. Along with the correct Beck method of riveting. The barrel is a robust octagon to round about 62 cal. BJH

[Bob Roller]

Years  ago,a friend of mine had a long rifle built by Tom Nixon for use in NSSA competition.
The NSSA said it was not authentic and disallowed it. The owner of the gun,Denny Goodwin showed them
a picture of the rifle in a book on Confederate arms and put an end to their "expert opinions"
I made the lock and triggers for this one and have no idea where it is now. Denny passed away a few
tears ago.
Bob Roler

[lostinthewoods]

How would somebody go about modifying a barrel like this for a bayonet?

[Turtle]

I built a new England fouler and after it was finished I immediately modified it into a militia musket like my ancestor would have carried. I added sling swivels, modified it for a steel ramrod, and cut the stock back, moved the sight and added an underbarrel lug for a bayonet.-lots of fun.

[Pennsylvania Dutchman]

Thank you all for the replies. I haven't made up my mind yet if I want to do the modification. I do believe it would make for an interesting gun. If I do go ahead with it, I probably will go with the iron Bess rammer and Bess trumpet upper pipe. I will never fire the gun enough for barrel damage with the iron rammer to be an issue. According to the dimensions in the TOW catalog, the muzzle of my barrel is .005" larger than the muzzle of a Bess barrel. So, fitting a bayonet should be easy enough. A lot of good info in all the replies, thank you all again.
Mark