Author Topic: A question and opinion  (Read 3528 times)

Offline Gaeckle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1360
A question and opinion
« on: November 05, 2017, 03:20:21 AM »
Today, my partner Dave, Liza and I set about to setting up the next schedule for the upcoming gun building class held at the Log Cabin Shop. The current group of guys we have are really an outstanding bunch who have put in a lot of hard work between class dates and it shows with their builds.

For some time now, Dave and I have had as students all sorts, from all walks of life and the both of us realize that there are at least two common elements when we have new people taking our classes. One is tools, (the quality of tools) and the inexperience of basic inletting. The tool issue we pretty much have solved with a rental policy. The other is a bit more complex. In our class we explain that in this hobby the gun we are building is a process of inletting. Everything is inlet into a piece of wood: barrel, lock, triggers, guard, pipes. If the student lacks in these skills, the build suffers, the class could be a letdown, the student may have a poor opinion of this hobby and quite possibly give up altogether.

As we were setting up the class schedule we discussed the possibility of have a class devoted to basic inletting. The challenges faced in doing inletting, tool control, how to solve miscuts, pop outs, preperation of the material to be inletted and all those little subtle nuances that can occur when we try to inlet metal into wood.

So here's the question: what do you folks think of a class, be it one day, maybe two, that shows the basic inletting practices for those who wish to build or learn to build. Do you guys think it serves a practical purpose and would it be worth the effort?

Offline Chowmi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 843
Re: A question and opinion
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2017, 04:32:35 AM »
I think you are exactly right to identify inletting as a primary issue in gun building.  I still suck at it, but am much better now than 2 guns ago.

I would think that this one or two day class would be extremely valuable, but if it conflicts with the gun building class then most won't take it.  In other words, a new builder will want to dive right in, and if the inletting class overlaps with the gun building class (precluding taking the gun building class until the next year), they won't do it.  That would have been my attitude when I started this, right or wrong.

If you can do the inletting class prior to the building class, then I think that's the way to do it. 

Or, have day one of the gun building class be just about inletting. Lay the fundamental groundwork for most of our tasks, then get into the building. 

Cheers,
Norm
Cheers,
Chowmi

NMLRA
CLA

Offline Goo

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 708
Re: A question and opinion
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2017, 04:38:07 AM »
Put a video on USB drive or DVD, make this an in advance study at home portion of the class. Have people sign up for the class 3-4 months ahead so they can have time to receive, study and do practice Inletting blocks before hand.   You can cover the tools workspace etc. then the participants will be up to speed and you can cover other things during class time.  This may raise the price of the class some but maybe less expensive than actual studio time.   
« Last Edit: November 05, 2017, 04:39:33 AM by Goo »
Opinions are expensive. Rich people rarely if ever voice their opinion.

Offline Ray Settanta

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 193
Re: A question and opinion
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2017, 05:05:01 PM »
For me, I would like having the first day of the gun building class devoted to basic inletting. Seems like it would be a natural part of the building process.

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13415
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: A question and opinion
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2017, 05:10:51 PM »
Great idea. Some areas people have the most trouble with are butt plates and rear ram rod pipes, would be valuable areas to give a "how to" lesson. How to inlet a patchbox would probably be helpful as well.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Bigmon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1412
Re: A question and opinion
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2017, 05:14:30 PM »
Amen on all that, especially on the buttplate, rear RR pipe, and maybe make that a sliding wooden patch box as well.
This is a great web site

n stephenson

  • Guest
Re: A question and opinion
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2017, 05:17:14 PM »
Gaeckle , You have addressed a real issue that is HUGE in relation to gunbuilding. I am NOT putting down kit , building by any means , so everybody  keep your panties out of a wad. When people start out with a kit ,it is helpful , in teaching them the relationship of the parts , and it is a huge head start toward turning out a good functional rifle that, should be set up with correct architecture. Now for the BUT. What I personally feel that they miss out on is the 3 most important  basic skills needed to actually build guns, grain structure, inletting , shaping . I do put , grain structure first , because you will never be good at inletting , or shaping , without first understanding grain structure. I do place inletting next because a huge amount of building , is inletting parts into the wood . Practice inletting should include inletting into  both , convex and concave surfaces , as there is very little flat surface inletting to be done and, curved surfaces present their own challenges. It doesn't matter whether your inletting a lock plate  or , a multi pierced pathbox , it is the same process , remove wood , install metal. I won`t get into shaping because your post addresses inletting. I do think that you have a very good point and, it would be very beneficial to your students to get their inletting skills up to par  BEFORE jumping on a rifle build. Might as well throw in some tool sharpening or, they will be tearing out wood with DULL tools , never think that people automatically know about sharp tools when , most people today don`t even carry a pocket knife little lone , know anything about sharpening a knife or any other tool for that matter . And they will never get satisfactory inletting with dull tools. Not meant to be a rant , just some real world things , that do come into play , when inletting. I do think that, your students will have a much better experience , when they get their legs under them , and learn to properly crawl before being tossed into the Boston Marathon.  JMHO   Nate
« Last Edit: November 05, 2017, 05:27:07 PM by n stephenson »

Offline Kingsburyarms

  • Jon Rider
  • member 2
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 956
  • Jon Rider
Re: A question and opinion
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2017, 06:18:06 PM »
My $0.02...

As long as the class is "Result Oriented" instead of "Process Oriented" Today's students need results much quicker than in the past. Instant meals, instant messaging, movies on demand, the culture is set up to enable a result on an immediate basis. All Schools are moving toward this training process. So as long as you have a class session that provides a "results" oriented outcome, then I believe students will learn the craft of in-letting as what it is, in-letting, not just a step in a larger task of gun making.

An Example: Washing the Dishes

Here is an example when you are about to “clean the dishes”:

Washing the dishes process oriented:

“Ahwww, what an awful boring task again! I have to take the plates and glasses and make them clean. Then use the towel, dry them and put them into the cupboard.”

Washing the dishes result oriented:

“I want to have a clean and nice kitchen. What do I have to do to get the result? I have to wash the dishes, the plates and glasses and I put them into the cupboard then. So let’s get moving! I want to have my sweet clean kitchen back. … hmm, washing the dishes is not that bad actually ;)

While it may not be that unbiased it makes the point clear: if you know why you are doing it, you are more motivated to take action having your result in mind. The same applies to all kind of usually more complex tasks of the information-age. Result-orientation simply makes it faster and easier to succeed. Today, the average training video or class session is 2-5 minutes. If these steps and tasks can meet that - then I believe it would be a wonderful opportunity to set a solid foundation of in-letting as a step in the process of building.

Jon

n stephenson

  • Guest
Re: A question and opinion
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2017, 06:53:28 PM »
My $0.02...

As long as the class is "Result Oriented" instead of "Process Oriented" Today's students need results much quicker than in the past. Instant meals, instant messaging, movies on demand, the culture is set up to enable a result on an immediate basis. All Schools are moving toward this training process. So as long as you have a class session that provides a "results" oriented outcome, then I believe students will learn the craft of in-letting as what it is, in-letting, not just a step in a larger task of gun making.

An Example: Washing the Dishes

Here is an example when you are about to “clean the dishes”:

Washing the dishes process oriented:

“Ahwww, what an awful boring task again! I have to take the plates and glasses and make them clean. Then use the towel, dry them and put them into the cupboard.”

Washing the dishes result oriented:

“I want to have a clean and nice kitchen. What do I have to do to get the result? I have to wash the dishes, the plates and glasses and I put them into the cupboard then. So let’s get moving! I want to have my sweet clean kitchen back. … hmm, washing the dishes is not that bad actually ;)

While it may not be that unbiased it makes the point clear: if you know why you are doing it, you are more motivated to take action having your result in mind. The same applies to all kind of usually more complex tasks of the information-age. Result-orientation simply makes it faster and easier to succeed. Today, the average training video or class session is 2-5 minutes. If these steps and tasks can meet that - then I believe it would be a wonderful opportunity to set a solid foundation of in-letting as a step in the process of building.

Jon
Jon, I understand what your saying about modern "results oriented" teaching . I also would point out that the analogy about a clean kitchen sounds good. The only problem that I see with it is , that if the person is motivated by a "clean kitchen" and wasn't taught the correct way to wash dishes , then , later when you look at his" clean kitchen" , you realize there is still egg on the plates and milk , in the bottom of the glasses. Not trying to be difficult , but I don`t buy much of this "Modern" teaching philosophy . My bottom line on it is , if you want to build rifles LEARN INLETTING !!!   I am NOT against the new comer by ANY means and have demonstrated this numerous times by, donating my time , knowledge ,and,  resources to help them many times in the past and , will again . To say that "today`s student`s " need a special way of being trained doesn't really hold much water with me . What they actually need to do is understand that, they are trying to learn a SKILLED TRADE !! I get so tired of today`s mentality , that inside  everybody there  is  a gun maker just waiting to get out!. I will never try to discourage anyone from trying to build a rifle. But I refuse to drink from the modern pitcher of "KOOL AID" that everybody is equal in skills and abilities. That`s why the gun makers of Europe guarded their skills , it set them apart from the unskilled. Today it is easier than any other time in history , for someone to learn gunbuilding! No matter how much we cater to them , they still have to decide they are willing to learn the basics , or they can forget it .  Everybody watch for me at the Super Bowl this year , I`m gonna score the winning touchdown , as soon as I can figure out how to strap on this dang helmet .     Nate
« Last Edit: November 05, 2017, 06:56:01 PM by n stephenson »

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13415
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: A question and opinion
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2017, 07:03:20 PM »
Skip the helmet Nate, they didn't wear them in the old days of football...back when men were MEN! ;D
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

n stephenson

  • Guest
Re: A question and opinion
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2017, 07:13:34 PM »
Skip the helmet Nate, they didn't wear them in the old days of football...back when men were MEN! ;D
Yeah! My head is hard enough , that if I didn't wear one , they would say , I had an unfair advantage. Hey,  but if I got ejected from the game , I would still know how to inlet a patch box ::) ::) ::) ::) ;D

Offline Kingsburyarms

  • Jon Rider
  • member 2
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 956
  • Jon Rider
Re: A question and opinion
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2017, 07:20:30 PM »
Nate - I fully understand your thoughts, approach and I respect it - When I was younger (High School) and wanted to borrow the family's car, I had to do 10 slide rule problems on Orbital computations and get them correct before I saw the keys (1970's) Space race.

IMO - Times have changed, and with it - teaching methods - if we want to fill this forum, this hobby and this profession with the next generation of builders, we have to pull them away from the 3D printers, virtual reality, on demand entertainment and show them in a way that they can relate to their world mixed with the historical accurate way of building. I think this in-letting class could be a wonderful offering as a series of "sub tasks" to complete the final objective.

My grandfather was a professional football player in 1919 and he didn't wear a helmet. We have learned so much since then. Let's learn to teach with protective equipment, but the same game.  ;D

Jon

n stephenson

  • Guest
Re: A question and opinion
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2017, 08:00:59 PM »
Jon, I see your point on the way many other modern things compete for a person`s time. I just feel that when it comes to gun building , inletting is such an important part , that it should be a fundamental step to learn . I see the modern desire for instant gratification all the time. I constantly hear people talking about how smart people are today and , that today`s children are so smart that they need a "different " type of teaching. I say BULLSNOT!! Usually the one`s saying this are the educators that are pushing for the school district to spend a bunch of money on the latest , greatest teaching aid. These same people are the first to make excuses when the dismal test scores come in , or they get caught manipulating the scores to pad the books. For some reason , people think that , because little Johnny sent his first text message at age 5 then he`s a technical wizard ,, WRONG ANSWER!!! If he  was a technical wizard he would invent something , not just be another mindless sheep punching buttons on something that an actual smart person invented.  I understand that things change with time, I`m just very skeptical when people start wanting to cater to the student , when in reality , the student needs to conform to the task at hand or try crochet instead of gunbuilding. There will ALWAYS be many steps involved in building rifles period! If a person doesn't want to learn the basic fundamentals of inletting , then there is no use in wasting anybody else`s time.  Nate

Fiftyfour

  • Guest
Re: A question and opinion
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2017, 09:03:14 PM »
If there was a one or two days class in northern New England on in letting I would sign up in a heart beat. 
I have done a few flintlocks with self taught skills and I know there have to be better and more reliable methods than some I have taught
My self.
Years ago our sensi talked about coming to the dojo with an empty tea cup. I wish I could remember how this analogy went.  But basically empty your mind of what you think You know and let the Masters teach you.