How would you blokes go about repairing this sideplate?

[Pukka Bundook]

Sorry to plague you chaps, but been wondering how to repair this sideplate.

Been very nice, and it's on another crippled  project. (!) By Woolley and Has been a lovely gun at one time.

Any suggestions most appreciated!!
Richard.

[Joe S.]

That nice old piece deserves some fixin,in sure the experts here will be able to help out.I would think you could make another though,would be nice to have an idea as to the detail on what's missing but one could get it close by what's there and make a new pattern for the mold and cast a new one.

[SingleMalt]

There was a post not too long ago about deft clay casting.  That's probably the route to take, as Joe said.

[Pukka Bundook]

Thanks for your thoughts on this chaps.

I was wondering about a complete new one, or try and attach the missing part to what is already there.
As you say Joe, it'd be nice to know exactly what the details looked like, but will have to go off what we have and make it flow .

Single Malt,
Thanks for the tip on the casting thread.  Will look it up. Never have cast anything but pewter and babbit!

Thank you again,
Richard.

[SingleMalt]

Here it is.  http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=45872.0

[Mike Brooks]

Unless you can do it properly I'd leave it alone. By proper I mean an invisible or nearly invisible repair of the original piece. I wouldn't know how to do that, above my pay grade again. I suppose there are some top drawer restoration guys out there that could do it, I'd go that route myself.

[Pukka Bundook]

Single malt,

Thank you for the link!

Mike,
Going to a top drawer restoration chap isn't in my means.  Bottom feeder, like in the other thread, right?!  :-)
If gun only needed the sideplate it would not be so bad, but it needs a Lot more as well.

I will definitely keep you posted though.

[P.W.Berkuta]

Pukka Bundook - I would contact DaveC2 here on this forum - he is a member. I think he would have the most experience with this kind of thing.

[smart dog]

Hi,
Here is how I might try to replace the missing section. First, I would do as much research as possible to understand what the missing section should look like in detail. I would make a detailed drawing of it to scale. Then, using thin paper, I would make a rubbing of the missing section with pencil. If the section has high relief, I would glue the rubbing on to butter board or wood and cut it out, cutting on the outside of the border lines. Then I would carve the wood or butter board and use it as a model for casting the section using Delft clay. If the relief is low, I would glue the rubbing on silver sheet and cut it out with a jeweler's saw, keeping it a little oversized to be fitted into the inlay. Then I would engrave and chisel it. Either way, after fitting the finished piece, I would fit it into the inlay and see if it was sufficiently tight to stay put without being attached to the old section. If it needs to be attached, I probably would scrape the end of the old piece, flux it as well as the end of the new piece, place the new piece in the inlay and using a soldering iron and TIX low temperature solder, sweat solder into the joints, which can be done without burning the wood. Then clean up the solder.

dave 

[Marcruger]

I'll bet Ed Wenger could cast the missing part and engrave it so you'd never notice.  I am sure there are a few others that could do it as well.  Pretty gun.  God Bless,  Marc

[jerrywh]

 I would not try to cast it because of the shrinkage problem. I would make a rubbing of the cavity and saw it out of brass wit ha jewelers saw. It can be filed to fit exactly.  You will never know exactly what the original design looked like but neither does anybody else. That is t your advantage. You can make it very close by examining the other part. If I did it you would never know it was repaired. The most difficult part is soldering it. Sometimes that old brass will not solder at all. There is a chance that there is another one just like it in one of W. Keith Neal's books.

[Pukka Bundook]

Thanks for all the helpful ideas chaps.
Single Malt,

Looked at your link and very helpful!

Smart Dog, Very good to receive your input on this.  The fog is slowly clearing on it with all the help.  :-)

Now, can you tell me,   Why when casting a flattish one-sided casting, why use a two piece mold?
I seem to have seen old castings, very rough on the back and a bit dished, that appear to have been cast in a mould with no top, ...just molten brass poured in.  Am I missing something here??  I'm ignorant as can be on all this, so please humour me! 

Thanks again, Piles of help on this forum!!
Richard.

[James Rogers]

Here you go Richard

[Pukka Bundook]

James! That's Brilliant!

I have looked in all the wrong places obviously.  Where did you find this photo?
Any info on the gun, ? More photos anywhere of it?

Thanks a million!

JHave it saved to blow up.   Very kind and thanks again!

[Bill Raby]

Lost wax casting. Carve a new one out of modeling wax based on an impression. Make sure that it is a nice tight fit. You would not need to do any finish work on the edges since it would be below the level of the wood, so shrinkage is not really an issue. Or make a casting of just the missing piece and use a 85% brass, 15% silver solder to put them together. No visible seam.

[James Rogers]

James! That's Brilliant!

I have looked in all the wrong places obviously.  Where did you find this photo?
Any info on the gun, ? More photos anywhere of it?

Thanks a million!

JHave it saved to blow up.   Very kind and thanks again!

English auction many years ago, mid 18th century provincial piece. Only photo in know of.  I want to say Fisher of Bristol. Most likely wad a Christie's auction. You might try to look it up on their website.

[jerrywh]

  That is great James.  The people who cast these parts in England back when were pros. As a result they usually always cast many of the same pattern and sold them to gun makers throughout the country and even throughout Europe. I often see the same side plate on guns from different makers in England.

[James Rogers]

Yes very common. Many dont realize that gunmakers didn't make these. They were purchased. I do think that maybe some silversmiths could have collaborated with specific maker's on exclusive use of a few patterns.

[Dphariss]

I agree, make a piece from thick sheet to fit the old inlet so it butts against the surviving side plate. Engrave/sculpt to match, use gold colored silver solder to put the pieces together. Or solder first....
Getting brass of the same color as the original may be an issue, but on a restoration I think close is good enough.
Dan

[Jim Kibler]

If it were me, I would just cut to shape and chisel rather than casting.  I had a fowling piece where the guard finial was missing and had to do this.  Photos were on photobucket, but you all know this story...  If Smart Dog is up for it, he might be able to show a few photos.  I wasn't able to find an original match, so had to be somewhat creative with the desigh.

I might add, that unless someone with skill is doing this work, it would be better to do nothing.   I hate to see sub-par restoration work.  Seems to be all to common on these guns with a relatively modest value.

Jim

[smart dog]

Hi Jim,
I just got home from delivering work but I will take some photos of the fowler.  If folks read my post thoroughly, I said if the relief is high, casting may be best but if the relief is low, sheet silver that is sculpted would be best.  Even if you cast the part, it will need sculpting with chisels to sharpen the details. PB, this is a job for a very skilled and knowledgeable craftsman. If you are unsure of yourself, cannot afford to farm the job out, and are determined to do it, make it reversible without damaging the wood.

dave

[Pukka Bundook]

Sorry I don't have much time to reply to all this evening.

Dave,
I will do it right or I won't touch it. I will not mess it up because that wouldn't do anyone any good, and neither the gun.

Sorr I can't stay and chew this over.   Hopefully be back here tomorrow.

Thanks again to all!
Richard.

Edited this morn to add this;
I do appreciate everyone having concern for these old and abused guns, to save them from further misery.
Apparently back home in the UK now, there are vast herds of  "Shed Apes" as I call them, all wanting to buy old guns and make a big profit on them.
They do wonders with bench and angle grinders, electric welders and all such.   There should be some law passed against what they do.
When I bought a small consignment of old and tired arms over there, , it was with a strong desire to save some of these 'has beens" from such hands.
I hope in some way to belay anyone's fears that I too am a shed-ape or whatever.  :-)
I love these old guns and want to see some of them looking better, not brand new just decent again, not looking like something the cat dragged in.
As I have a few of these projects in the pipe-line, it is slow and I will likely show photos of other horrors while I am mulling and gathering information.

Thanks again for this fantastic and supportive forum!
If anyone can find a full-on photo of the above sideplate, I would very much like to see it.  I have not been able to find this one (yet) myself.

BTW, I am rather surprised that this baroque -looking sideplate would be fitted to the Woolley gun, which must be from the 1780's at the oldest I'd think.
The monster head was most unexpected!
On the Woolley, it also has lock panel broken out, split through the head, and needs the rib re-laying.  It is converted to percussion, as it will stay, though I would Much prefer it had remained flint!

Very best,
Richard.

[Goo]

The conservators at places like the Smithsonian would replace the missing piece with one of  a neutral material that shows an approximation of what it should have looked look like.   Conservators dont like things to be restored to perfection as if it were new the idea being to replace the part or hide the crack or cover up injury gives a false impression.

[Pukka Bundook]

Goo,

There will always  be different sides to a coin;
Back home when I was a lad we had a threpenny bit, and It had 12 sides.  :-)

Not wanting it to look new, just decent again. Should I leave the bottom rib hanging off, the splits in the head and all? If I do, it could well be regarded as scrap and maybe junked for parts one day.  This isn't an ancient and rare find like an Iron Age whatever.    Time and place is important.


Very best wishes,
Richard.

[jerrywh]

  I believe in making a restoration as close to it's original condition as possible. But it is important not to destroy the patina of age. It take a very high degree of talent to do a perfect job on a gun such as this. The original gun was a flintlock and in my opinion should be converted back. In my opinion people who say that these guns should not be made as close to original as possible are using that as a excuse for the lack talent to do so or the desire to pay for it. Truthfully there are not many people today capable of first class restoration. There are a couple on this forum who are very good.