Need trigger work on my smoothbore flintlock match rifle

[sonny]

I have a 16 gauge smoothbore fowler, that I had made for match shooting. I wanted a light trigger about  1 1/2 pd, crisp, no creep. The gun shot like magic an I won matches with it all over..............here's my problem: The trigger when at full cock will let go if you push against the full cocked hammer. I have tried to reach the maker to help me, but I get no reply from email text or phone.....I am stuck!!!!...........can anybody recommend a crackerjack gunsmith that can do some stone work on my lock an make it safe, solid, no creep??.......................sonny  (northeastern p.a.)

[Mike Brooks]

Sounds like a couple file strokes on top of the trigger bar would solve this quick.

[EC121]

You need to know if it is the lock or the stock.  Take a look at the notch and the sear nose engagement to see if it is solid.  Try the lock out of the gun.  Does it work OK?  As Mike said, the wood might have shrunk some and made the trigger bar push on the sear bar. 

[T*O*F]

the wood might have shrunk some and made the trigger bar push on the sear bar. 

Or, more likely the builder pre-loaded the trigger against the sear bar to achieve that 1.5 lb trigger pull.....in which case, do like Mikey says.

[Darkhorse]

Sounds like wood has swelled and is binding the end of the sear bar. Under a good light look in the mortice cut for the sear bar and look for a shiney spot on the wood where it has been pressing against the end of the sear bar. Remove the shiney spot and test the rifle. If it works right then I'd remove some more wood then seal the mortices against moisture.

[sonny]

Nawwwww, when the lock is out of the fowler, it stil lwon't hold.......................sonny

[Hungry Horse]

A trigger pull that light is not even allowed on many ranges. I know of several that require at least two pounds pull, and a couple that require three. The reason being that the slightest change in the stock wood, or wear in the lock parts make these guns a ticking time bomb.

 Hungry Horse

[retired fella]

I had this issue a couple of years ago.  Turns out the sear spring had weakened over the years.  Replaced the spring, problem solved.  I suspect a little stoning on your tumbler notch would be step one.

[OldMtnMan]

A trigger pull that light is not even allowed on many ranges. I know of several that require at least two pounds pull, and a couple that require three. The reason being that the slightest change in the stock wood, or wear in the lock parts make these guns a ticking time bomb.

 Hungry Horse

Even for set triggers? Most of mine were in the 8oz range.

[Hungry Horse]

 All triggers 2# or better, no matter what kind of trigger configuration, on several ranges around here.

  Hungry Horse

[Flint62Smoothie]

FWIW if you can push the cock forward then you have NEGATIVE engagement between the sear and tumbler mating surfaces. A properly tuned trigger assembly will have a slightly positive engagement.

I check all such interfaces w/ 10-15X optical loupes, with angle gradiants ground into the lens, so I can verify and/or check my work - or that of others’ - before AND after such tuning.

I’d be surprised if a gunsmith would agree to reworking a suspect flint trigger to be so light, unless of course they had the legal coversge and had you knowingly (informed consent) signing off on all responsibility thereof.

But back to YOUR issue ... sounds to me like your low trigger pull weight was initially achieved by a negative rake to one of, or both, of these surfaces and these WILL WEAR over time. Not “if” ... but “when” ...

[rich pierce]

Agree with above. To diagnose remove mainspring, flop frizzen forward, and clamp lock down to bench maybe into a piece of styrofoam, guts up. Pull to full cock then lift the sear bar while pressing forward on cock. Or just use a rubber band to act as mainspring. As you lift the sear, the cock should not move a smidgeon. If it starts to slide forward even a scoche before the sear nose clears the tumbler notch you have a very dangerous lock. Sear nose or tumbler notch needs angle adjustment.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Sonny:  1 1/2 pounds in a big musket lock is asking for trouble.  It will definitely wear and become unsafe, as yours has done.  You lock can certainly be set up again to fire as you wish, but it is going to wear again.  Too small an engagement area under the power of a heavy mainspring...unsafe.  Four pounds is perfectly adequate for that style gun...

[Flint62Smoothie]

As you lift the sear, the cock should not move a smidgeon.

If it moves at all doing this ... if anything, it should be trying to rock BACKWARDS; which is proof of slightly positive engagement.

FWIW I was professionally trained and could deliver 2.2 pound trigger pulls on expen$ive 22LR match pistols that would stay there for years, and never be unsafe or go below the minimum 2-pound limit where it would be disqualified. But those actions and COIL springs were designed for that.

I agree with DTS ... expecting that type of result out of a flint action, with a heavy, forged V mainspring is not only impractical and foolish, but probably borders on being irresponsible.

[sonny]

Ouch, ouch ouch,...............I realize that the trigger would be more safe with a 2 1/2 or 3 lb trigger.............but not some 8lb jobbers with enough slop an creep to give you white knuckles on the trigger squeeze.....instead of trying to work on the old original trigger, new internals will be fitted to the side plate an hammer, so as to fit my finished fowler. I will then use my trigger pull gauge to determine what trigger pull these new parts will deliver, an try to adjust the fit against my trigger bar(single trigger). Is there a you tube video showing how to adjust a trigger for a crisp, clean break, no creep adjustment???...............sonny

[rich pierce]

No YouTube videos on this. Trigger pull with a simple trigger in a sidelock gun involves a series of levers working against springs. It is difficult to get a light pull with no creep because of leverage principles.

Let’s say the distance from the trigger pivot pin to your finger is fixed. That is like the length of pliers handles versus a pruning tool. Longer handle equals more leverage but this is a fixed distance.

The distance from the trigger pivot pin to the sear arm is variable. This distance determines leverage and travel. If the trigger pivot is close to the sear arm, leverage is great, weight of pull is decreased, but the trigger must move far to lift the sear arm enough to release the trigger. It’s like a set of pruning shears where you move the handles very wide to get great leverage. And the handles move many inches together as you cut, simply to cut something an inch in diameter.

Try cutting a thumb sized limb with little garden hand pruning scissors and there’s not enough leverage because the handles are short. It follows then that a pivot far from sear bar results in more force required.

Length of the sear from pivot to nose, and pivot to arm determines leverage also.

All these work against both the sear spring and the friction and force required to move the sear nose which is being pinned with great force against the tumbler notch by the mainspring.

In most cases owners of flintlocks with simple triggers don’t want to mess with replacing the trigger which has greatest impact on leverage versus creep. So they fiddle with the lock, which can lead to safety issues.

It sounds like this was done and as stated above, the sear nose and/or full cock notch have bad angles.

[Pukka Bundook]

Sony,

There's no need to replace the tumbler or scear.  They just need working on to get the depth and angles right.

Richard.

[ddoyle]

Buy Steve Culver's book on Lock Design for less then 20 bucks to your door in a day or two. Read it then you will understand what is going on behind the plate. Then read Taylor's post above enough times till it sinks in. If you got deeper pockets read up on locks in vol 1 of The Shotgun then reread Taylor's post per above.

Being less kind- a 1.5 pound trigger on a fowler is kind of selfishly stupid- we know that because all of a sudden the lock you commisioned started to go Klack when it should have remained silent. Not saying you were selfishly stupid because you were ignorant to the danger but someone was selfishly stupid to loose it on the world. Good thing you caught the issue the painless way.