J&S Hawken vs S. Hawken rifle's ?

[cowboys1062]

 I have a question in regards to the visual difference's between the J&S Hawken and the S. Hawken rifle's? I realize that there are many variations with the Hawken name but also that there are also some characteristics that they also have in common.

 I've attempted to do a little research on my own but I'd also like to here what you might want to contribute as well? I own and rersearched the following book"s.

 1. The Hawken Rifle, Its place in history. by Charles Hanson
 2. Hawken Rifles, The Mountain Man's Choice. by John D. Baird
 3. Fifteen Years In The Hawken Lode. by John D. Baird
 4. The Muzzle-Loading Cap Lock Rifle. by Ned Roberts
 5. The Plains Rifle. by Charles Hanson

 Also did some research on the web and looked at many reproduction build's on Track's Archive's. Also reread some of the old post's here on the forum. I've also had the privilege of talking a little bit with Don Stith. I own a Hawken that he had personally built and a beautiful rifle I might add!

 Lastly, here are some difference's that I can sort of gather if I'm correct?

 1. Trigger Guard
 2. Slanted breech vs Straight
 3. Flat face on snail vs concave face
 4. Double pin's to hold the ramrod entry pipe on the J&S vs Single pin on the S. Hawken rifle.

 These are the only minor difference's that I'm personally aware of but I'm also positive there are more. I've read enough on that specific rifle to get me good and confused on some of its aspects. Other than my Don Stith Hawken, I personally own several other custom and repro build's. The Hawken rifle as well as other Plains type's have always fascinated me. Don't get me wrong, I also love my flinter longrifle's as well!

 Anyway, I'd appreciate your knowledge and insight's on slight difference's between the J&S Hawken and the later S. Hawken rifle.

 Thank you!

 Respectfully, cowboys1062

[madmtmike]

we might get Bob Browner or Brant Selb to chime in here. Both are fine builders of that rifle.
madmtmike

[cowboys1062]

Thank you for the reply. I do hope these gentleman will respond as well as others who might have something to add.

Respectfully, cowboys1062

[rich pierce]

From what I see there抯 a sort of continual progression over time, that the very earliest J&S Hawken rifles are different from later ones, and so on.  The earliest ones have a guard with front and rear extensions like English guns, versus a stand alone guard screwed to the long trigger plate, for example.  Some earliest J&S Hawkens have tangs that look quite English.  And the early ones exhibit a variety of commercial locks from anywhere and everywhere. Look at pictures of the fancy Atchison Hawken, ignore the jewelry, and see how different it looks from later Plains rifles. 

https://jamesdjulia.com/item/52461-1-397/

I think the S. Hawkens mostly had cast buttplates versus forge brazed.  I抦 sure there are many differences over time that Bob Browner, Don Stith, Herb, Louie Parker and others could add.

There have been plenty of good discussions here over the years.
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=20823.0

[Herb]

Cowboys1062, I welcome your comments.  I have a 1" straight breech plug and tang from The Hawken Shop, I think, and don't know what it is appropriate for.  I like the Bridger and Carson rifles, and they have slanted tangs.  Also, their entry pipes are screwed from the inside, there is no pin.  An S. Hawken in the Nelson museum in Cheyenne has  the entry pipe pinned, but the Robidoux Hawken in Lincoln, NE has the entry pipe fastened with a screw.  My photos of these rifles are on this forum.

[smylee grouch]

It's hard to set strict rules when talking about these subjects as there are so many variations. There are exceptions to any of those rules. Ramrod entry pipes as Herb noted were pined most times with a single pin but there are a few out there with two pins and some where held with screws. Comb lines were more straight on Sams later guns as compared to earlier J&S guns. Breech snail styles vary a lot too. A lot of the Hawken guns had the screw slots lined up for and aft but you will find the exception to that rule too. If you look over Jim Gordons book or go through his museum you can see over 30 (I think) Hawken rifles up close and personal.

[Daryl]

Seems to me, one of these is an S. Hawken, while the other is a J&S Hawken.

[cowboys1062]

 I appreciate everyone's replies, pic's and additional information. I have a thirst and hunger to learn as much as I can ? All additional information that other's may want to contribute would definitely be most welcomed.

 Thank you.

 Respectfully, cowboys1062

[cowboys1062]

 Rich, I appreciate your information and link that you've provided on the GW Atchinson Hawken. I've actually seen that Hawken many times at the Buffalo Bill Historical Center in Cody. With out getting to much into my personal life, I'm actually from Cody Wyoming. I worked at the Cody Museum during my teen years as a night shift janitor. I try to go back home once a year to see my parents as well as family and friend's. Have had the opportunity to view those Hawken rifles up close and personal quite a few times. That definitely doesn't make me an expert though. They do have a nice collection on display there! Didn't really know the significance of what I was actually looking at that time in my life. It was not until much later in my life that I developed a desire and hunger to learn about those rifle's. Now I love everything about them and continue to strive to learn as much as I can.

 Respectfully, cowboys1062

[cowboys1062]

 Daryl, those are some very nice rifle's. If you don't mind me asking, who built them?

 Respectfully, cowboys1062

[OldMtnMan]

It seems popular to build Hawken copies with fancy curly maple. I can't remember seeing a real Hawken with that kind of wood. Were any built that way?

[smylee grouch]

There is an J&S Hawken in The Museum of the Fur Trade in Chadron, NB that has lots of curl,patchbox and is engraved IIRC. It was one of Dr. Kenneth Leonard's . It is IMHO the best of the best Hawken guns. You can see pics in Jim Gordons book.

[OldMtnMan]

I guess there would be some specials. I believe the vast majority were plain looking wood though. Even if it was maple.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

To me, the most obvious difference between J & S Hawken and S. Hawken rifles is the treatment of the breech.  The earlier rifles have various forms of patent and hooked breeches that were sculpted completely differently from the later S. Hawken rifles.  S. Hawken breeches, though there are many variations as well, have a consistent concave flute in the snail forward of the break-off.
Trigger guards on the later rifles too have a standardized form whereas Jake's rifles vary for more, while still retaining the scroll tail finial.
You cannot use the half stock vs full stock as a comparative device as full stocked rifles were being produced long after Jake was out of the picture.
I tend to think of S. Hawken rifles as being more voluptuous - fuller - than the earlier rifles.  And has already been pointed out, the use of cast hardware on later rifles sets them somewhat apart as well.
These observations I have made by simply studying photographed examples of Hawken guns.  I have only handled one original (thank you again Don), and that one surprised me at its slimness.  Studying photographs in such books as have already been mentioned is all most of us will likely be able to do, and that alone will help you understand these rifles far better than some essay presented here.  Being able to translate what you see into a contemporary effort to replicate...that's another matter.  We "endeavor to persevere".
There are enough Hawken rifles extant that have curly maple used for their stocks, that continuing with figured wood should not be considered a detractant.

[Daryl]

There's Hawken Rifles, then there are special Hawken Rifles. all of these I've posted are from D.Taylor's shop.
He likes using that goat skin. I bought that at a flea marker in Smithers, B.C. in 1978 for $5.00.
I either sold it to Taylor after I moved to P.G., or gave it to him, likely the latter.
It has been the underlay for many of his rifle pictures.

[OldMtnMan]

I've seen that pistol grip gun before. It doesn't really appeal to me and sort of ruins the lines of a Hawken. Do you like it?

[Daryl]

The fellow in Alaska who owns it sure does. It felt really good in the hand as I recall, but I didn't get to shoot it. Must have been out of town.
The tang sight was exceptionally well made, of course with 80 TPI on the stem, the necessary tap and die, courtesy of Bob Roller.

[cowboys1062]

I would like to thank everyone who has provided this very helpful information. I am thankful and grateful to each and every one of you!

 I would like to especially thank you Phil! I can only say Wow!

Thank you all.

Respectfully, cowboys1062

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

In defense of Mr. Samuel Hawken, he also might not have liked the pistol stocked rifle.  There are only three of them extant that I know of and they are unlikely to be rifles that would have been 'used up' in the mountains or plains.  But someone in the day did, and there ya go.
As far as a shooter goes, there is a marked difference in the way the rifle handles...more solid, better balanced, and easier to hold on target.  the design serves the function.
I too prefer the classic shape(s) of the Hawken rifle.