Albrecht flintlock pistol germany 1740 ??

[Excelsior1929]

Hello

I am from Germany and became aware of this forum through an old flintlock pistol.
Now I have registered here to ask you a few questions about the piece.
I have here a flintlock pistol around 1740 which is signed with ALBRECHT. She comes from the area around Suhl / Zella.
Is it possible that it is a pistol by ANDREAS ALBRECHT?


Thanks a lot in advance
Regards Arno

P.S. Sorry my bad Englsh

https://ibb.co/cHjNpG

https://ibb.co/g7gfbw

[Shreckmeister]

Anxious to follow this thread.  Any known documentation of PA gunsmiths that migrated from Germany where we have examples of their work on both
continents?  I'm not aware of any and this could be very interesting.

[spgordon]

Well... we know Albrecht immigrated to PA (1750) and was trained as a gunstocker in Suhl, which was a center of gunmaking: in 1753, for instance, some 82 gunsmiths, 60 gunstockers, and nine gun barrel makers operated there:

     https://www.immigrantentrepreneurship.org/entry.php?rec=263

Here is his signature:

     

But we have no signed work (until now?) of his from his German years.

[JTR]

Thanks for posting the pictures. And interesting to say the least!
I see some similarities in the carving on your pistol to the work AA did here on rifles, but nothing definitive enough to say its one in the same guy.
However, personally, I wouldn't be surprised that it is.

Take good care of your pistol. If it is the same AA as here in the US, its a treasure to many!

John 

[OldSouthRelics]

This sounds like it could be very interesting and potentially contentious.

Very handsome piece, thank you for sharing. Could somebody link or post some pictures of Albrecht's work when he arrived in PA?

I would proceed with caution and with hard evidence before attributing the pistol to the same Albrecht, but will admit, the timeframe seems possible.

[Eric Kettenburg]

Very interesting.  It's certainly a European walnut and the period ca. 1740s through the 1750s seems appropriate.  Unfortunately, I don't see anything that one could use specifically as attribution, save the signature of course.

Curious little mark on the barrel tang.

[Algae]

Welcome Arno, and thanks for sharing!

Very nice piece!

Al J.

[vanu]

Eric,

I had a Swiss (?) fowler in my collection that had a similar mark on the tang:

http://www.flintriflesmith.com/Antiques/Swiss%20or%20German%20Gun.htm

Gary thought it was the number 2 in script...not sure about that though.

Bruce

[Dennis Glazener]

Arno,
Welcome to ALR, your English is fine, much better than my German!

Is there a possibility you have any history on that gun other than the area it came from?
Dennis Glazener (German Palatines....ship Rawley, arriving at Philadelphia, October 23, 1752 from Rotterdam)

[Ron Scott]

Thank you for sharing the photos of your pistol. I don't have any information to associate this Pistol with Albrectht guns in America, but have a distinct interest in Germanic Flintlocks. Having observes several European flintlocks with engraving on the tangs, I am sure this is a number. I have observed intact sets of matching  hunting rifles with as many as six, each with its number on the tang.

I was curious as to how you arrive at a estimate of date and location?

[mark esterly]

imo there's no way you can make that mark on the tang a script number 2.   a J would be more convincing.

[Eric Kettenburg]

I'm aware of the numbering system seen on various 'suites' of arms made for various owners.  I also do not see that mark as a number.  In fact, it looks quite primitive compared to the rest of the work and I wonder if it might be secondary.

[vanu]

Mark/Eric,

Agree that likely isn't "2" in script...Likewise, I thought maybe a "1" and this was part of a suite of arms. I do think its period, as to wether or not the maker engraved it, that is open to speculation; i just thought it was interesting that this mark so closely resembles that on the pistol in this original posting.

Bruce

[Ron Scott]

I was able to locate a reproduced Calligraphic Plate drawn by Christopher Saur in  1754,  that shows the number 1 as engraved on the pistol tang.  The plate is viewable in Calligraphy hand writing in America 1710-1962 by the Peabody Institute Library.  My Paul Poser Rifle from Prague has a 1 in the same script form.  European script has a surprising amount of variation.

The fact that the engraving is different than most of the other work is not surprising. Bear in mind that the European Flintlocks were made in shops of multiple workers and discipline's. I have a Vienese Rifle that has barrel decoration that is Ottoman, chiseled mounts by some unknown artist and a breech tang engraved by a much less talented craftsman.  It is even possible the number was applied by an Armorer,
or Hunt Director. 

[RAT]

Thanks for posting... this is very cool. Makes me wish I paid more attention to these things when I was stationed over there.

Since we have no signed examples of Wolfgang Haga's work... but many guns attributed... I often thought of how interesting it would be to find a signed example from when he was still in Switzerland.

[rich pierce]

Arno, you need a price before this can be moved to the for sale area. It would be better if you started a new topic in the for sale area once you settled on an asking price. Cleaner.

[AsMs]

Well... we know Albrecht immigrated to PA (1750) and was trained as a gunstocker in Suhl, which was a center of gunmaking: in 1753, for instance, some 82 gunsmiths, 60 gunstockers, and nine gun barrel makers operated there:

     https://www.immigrantentrepreneurship.org/entry.php?rec=263

Here is his signature:

     


But we have no signed work (until now?) of his from his German years.

Mr. Gordon,

I read your link.  Very informative.  I followed the link of the plain twin of the Edward  Marshall  rifle.  Only one not so good picture of the Pike Smooth rifle.  I like what I see and would like to know if you have any more information about that rifle.  I see that it is owned by the Moravian Musuem.  Do they keep it on public display. 

Thanks in advance

AsMs