John Bivins Becentennial 50 cal....

[robpack@Hotmail.com]

Hi I purchased what I was told was a John Bivens 50 cal...inside the patch box it has Pennsylvania Centennial 1776 1976 1 of 3... ANY INFORMATION is greatly appreciated..... I was told it was made by John Bivens but on the barrel its stamped IB???    I paid very little money for this rifle, so do not be afraid to give me bad news..... Buyer bought it in a large lot of rifles... Also anyone know how to repair the patch box button...patchbox will not remain closed?  Seems like a very simple fix......  I can send pics if anyone would like to see some??? It looks unfired.... about 5.5 feet long... One other question, how many grains of 2F can I put down the barrel? I'm VERY familiar with Thompson centers, can I use the same load in this bivens? I was concerned being that the barrel is longer? 

[rich pierce]

IB was John Bivins’ stamp.  In colonial times sometimes J’s looked like I’s.

This could be a valuable collectors item.  Think about whether the rifle or the money would bevmore important to you.  Any signs of real use will diminish value.

We’d like to see pictures!

If you’re relatively new to black powder you might think about visiting a black powder gun club.

[Bigmon]

Photos please, several or more if possible!

[Hlbly]

IB is John Bivins’ touch mark. The problem with the lid is usually wood shrinkage. A little careful file work on the sides of the lid will usually fix that. If you are not familiar with that kind of work, let someone who is do it for you. Some yayhoo screwing with it could devalue it considerably. Shooting it will also devalue it.

[Cades Cove Fiddler]

  ... WOW,.... that's all I got to say about that ................

[EC121]

Bivins and a couple of others took the contract to make the  bicentennial rifles for Pa.  That led to them being classified as manufacturers instead of custom builders by the ATF and opened a can of IRS tax worms for all involved.  Too long a story to relate here.   There was a horn and bag sold with the rifles.  Here is a cut-and-paste from Jim Chambers 2008 post on here.


  Here's the introduction I had for the Bicentennial Rifle Project display at the CLA show this past summer:
"The year was 1975 -  V. Donald Hartnett, a history teacher from Johnstown, PA, conceived an idea for helping Pennsylvania celebrate the country"s Bicentennial.  He made a proposal to the PA State Legislature that they commission the manufacture of a limited production (200) of Pennsylvania longrifles.  The project was approved under the chairmanship of Lt. Governor Ernest P. Kline with Mr. Hartnett as the Project Director.  Thus was born the "Bicentennial Rifle".
Two of the premier gunmakers of the time accepted the contract to make the rifles.  John Bivins from NC and Jack Haugh from IN were to make 100 rifles each with Bivins using odd numbers 1 - 199 and Haugh to number his with even numbers 2 - 200.  Tom White of OH agreed to make all 200 scrimshawed and numbered powder horns.  Sally Sutart (a well recognized Johnstown, PA artist) designed and made two plaques that went with each set and hand painted the display racks.
All of the barrels were made in 50 caliber by Robert Paris of Gettysburg, PA.  C.E. (Bud) Siler of NC supplied all the flintlock mechanisms and assisted with the production of the hardware.  Joe Scorsone of NC did the initial machining of the stocks.  Monte Mandarino and Mark Silver moved to NC and helped John Bivins with the production of the rifles.
Each Bicentennial set included the rifle, a powder horn, tow plaques, a target shot with the rifle, and an instruction booklet on the proper use and care of the rifle and horn.  The cost of the Bicentennial Rifle Set in 1976:  $2250."
While the lock, stock, and hardware was the same for all the rifles, the carving and engraving was different on each one.

[robpack@Hotmail.com]

Well trying to post pics? I sent them from my phone to email saved them on my computer but how do I get them to here?  no clue.....

[robpack@Hotmail.com]

I can easily email them...but cannot do this....it simply comes up img??  never had this problem putting pics up but IM SURE I'm doing something wrong

[Tim Crosby]

 When you hit reply, you will see Add Image below the dialog box, click on it and select your pix, highlight them click open then up load and they should be here.
 If that doesn't work send them to me, ccrosby004@columbus.rr.com and I will post them for you.

   Tim C.

[Marcruger]

On the note of shooting it, if you really know how to take care of a muzzleloader, and can clean it completely, I don't think shooting it will "hurt" it if you are careful.

That said, I am a little concerned by the question about how much 2f you can stuff down the barrel.  The question that you SHOULD be asking is, "At what general load in a .50 have y'all gotten the best accuracy from your .50 gun?"  I would start at 55 grains or so, and shoot a group at 50 yards.  Put up another target at 50 yards and increase to 60 grains.  Keep doing that until your group size shrinks, then begins opening up.  The smallest group size will be your powder charge.  I would guess somewhere around 70 to 75 grains with a .495 roundball and .015 to .018 heavy canvas all cotton patch.  You should hear it start to "crack" around 65-70 grains.  Remember, it is of no importance how much powder you can stuff down, or how fast the ball goes, if you cannot hit that at which you are aiming. 

You have to ask yourself now, "Do I really want to shoot this expensive gun enough to determine the load it likes?"  If not, you may want to market it and buy something else. 

I hope this does not offend.  It was not intended to do so, but rather to be helpful. 

Best wishes, and God Bless,   Marc

[robpack@Hotmail.com]

[robpack@Hotmail.com]

MarcRuger I simply meant can I use the "standard" load I always use in my 50 cal renegades....Didn't know if barrel length had anything to do with pressures, but I was lucky enough to talk to Bill Shipman yesterday on the telephone....(builder from Lancaster) he told me that bivens is STRONGER than a Thompson...... That is all I meant by powder, same load...I am falling in love with this rifle.... 

[robpack@Hotmail.com]

One more question about this Bivins  how difficult is barrel removal?  I'm used to one "key" pop it out and done? How do the small pins come out? something like maybe a fine finish nail and gently push them out? there are at least 3 I believe? 

[robpack@Hotmail.com]

Why can I find no information on John Bivens life? I cannot find an obituary? a picture?  etc?   any help?

[Stoner creek]

Why on earth would you want to take the barrel out? These guns are at their most vulnerable point when the barrel is removed. Unless you REALLY NEED to take the barrel out, leave it in place.

[Mike Brooks]

Don't take the barrel out. This is probably a 5K gun. I'm probably low on my estimate.

[Tim Crosby]

Why can I find no information on John Bivens life? I cannot find an obituary? a picture?  etc?   any help?

 Take a look at this it may be of some help but it is from 2012 and some of the links may not work.

   Tim C.

  http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=20634.0

   Also scroll through this:

  http://contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/search?q=john+bivins

 One more; Do a "Search" on John Bivins here on the ALR, you will find Ten pages with reference to John. You will have to sort through them to see what you can find, some are just references to his book but there are some interesting stories/posts.

[Brent English]

Just to repeat what others have said, that is a valuable gun and very collectible.  DON'T SHOOT IT.  LEAVE THE BARREL IN.  Sell it to a collector, pocket the difference and buy a half dozen other guns to shoot with the profits.  That's the lucky kind of purchase most of us other punters only dream of.

[robpack@Hotmail.com]

Understood, it will probably be up for sale, I wanted a custom as an "alternative" to my Thompson centers..... As a 20 year old, 30 some years ago I purchased a 45 caliber "custom" in a bar.....It may have been an original from the 1700s for all I know. Loved it, accurate, light, accurate, always went off....  Anyhow fast forward 2 years I was driving deer in flintlock season, a man approached me at my vehicle and saw the 45cal...he offered me 300 on the spot for it which I accepted (needed the money was in college at the time) I STILL REGRET that, no clue who the man was or where he was from, but like I said I needed the money..... I was at the Artesian show in Lewisburg looking on Saturday and actually drove around looking  at used customs guys had for sale.... I placed an ad on pennswoods classifieds about 2 weeks ago "want to buy custom flintlock" that is how I happened across this gun.....it was the third used one I looked at....  I have one man from this site emailing me about it.....   I own rifles to USE, I cannot just "look" at it, it was made to shoot, but I understand it is a collectors item.... Any idea of an asking price would be wonderful?

[robpack@Hotmail.com]

[Mike Brooks]

I'd probably  be asking 5K, but I'd probably be giving it away.

[robpack@Hotmail.com]

In all honesty, how or who does determine value on these rifles?

[Stoner creek]

Brooks knows the market as good as anyone. You may also want to consult Jim Chambers. He’s really in tune to market and realistic sale prices.

[jaeren]

Jim has bought and sold these rifles.

[iloco]

Is this rifle for sale.....
Do you have any clear pictures of the rifle.  Does it show use or scratches.  That frizzen looks as its been used.
Where are you located.  There is no info in your profile.....