Help me choose a first flintlock LR to shoot and hunt

[Cossack]

I've got the muzzleloader bug, and it's gotta be a flintlock. It also has to be a long rifle or other full stock design. Any recommendations on a good value? I'd use it for hunting (mostly deer), targets, and general powder burning. I think I've settled on starting with a long rifle style in .50 or .54 caliber, although I'm not ruling out other bore sizes as long as it's over .45 (the legal limit for MT hunting).

I've been eyeballing the Pedersoli line, particularly the "Frontier," which is sold by Cabela's as the "Blue Ridge" for $650 (with free shipping at the moment). I like the lines, the long barrel, and the reviews I've read. I've also been eyeing the Tennesee Valley Muzzleloading "Poor Boy" Tennessee or Southern Rifle, which cost over $400 more. If I can explore this project for less money, I'll prefer to, but I don't want to buy a gun that will just frustrate me (or an ugly gun ).

I'm not ruling out a kit build, but I'd feel better cutting my teeth on a gun that's already built. I also love smoothbore guns, like military muskets and the Fusil de Chasse, but I think it would be prudent to start hunting with a rifle and become proficient before I challenge myself with a smoothbore.

The only percussion guns I might consider are European Military styles like the 53 Enfield, but I'm really much more interested in a flintlock. Montana doesn't have a Muzzleloader season, so the only real incentive for me is the connection to history, so even though other muzzleloader designs might be more efficient, I'm not really interested. I want it old fashioned and purty. American Long Rifles, military style rifled muskets, trade guns...

So with that in mind, can anyone offer recommendations? What are good options for a reliable, attractive flinter with a full length wooden stock and a (fairly) authentic historical aesthetic and function? What is to be avoided and why? What do I need to know about and keep in mind? As I mentioned, low price is important - I don't think I can pay more than the cost of a TVM right now, and even that will involve selling off a modern gun or two - but so is having something attractive that won't be full of frustrations.

Don't worry - I won't hunt with anything that I haven't learned and practiced to proficiency.

[Eric Krewson]

I would go with a TVM or Tip Curtis in the white to save money and have the fun of applying the finish. I like a .54 for deer.

If you ever shoot a gun with a good lock the factory guns will seem like second string to you.

I was TC guy until I was given a rifle with a Roller lock by a dying friend, one shot and all my TC stuff was for sale, there was that much of a difference.  Now all my rifles and my one fowler have polished and tuned Chambers locks, the late Ketland is my favorite, they are one fast lock and I have two rifles equipped with them.

[WadePatton]

If you are knowledgeable about guns and shooting, you might be fine buying used. Otherwise, buy "in-the-white" and learn how to test finishes on hidden places and how to finish wood and metal for a gun.  I cannot comment on production guns, but many here, including myself started on such for sure--BUT methinks they're a better bet in caplock than flintlock as flint-sparked locks are a bit more complex than cap snappers. 

There are many many ways to do finish work, and that'll keep you busy for a while-if you buy an in-the-white.

You may know all this already, but I'm going to say it out loud for the benefit of others who may not:  For BEST results and Respect, save up money rather than trying to "shop down" the prices.  Sure there are deals on used guns, but also there are risks to offset some of those "bargains".  Save up money and NEVER try to wheedle down a maker of finished hand-made goods. They are the most underpaid workers of modern times. We're lucky to have so many chasing a living in the niche, appreciate them.

 

also: 400 does good to buy a lock and a bbl. Study hard and figure you what you want/need, then figure a way to fund it.  And I've yet to see a production gun (as produced) that wasn't fugly.  Some can be cleaned up a bit, but that high-school bleachers looking woodgrain drives me nuts and is always dumbed down-shaped wrong.

[rsells]

I agree with Eric in a couple ways.  I love the .54 for deer and have used one for many years shooting matches as well, and I also think the Chamber's late Ketland flint is a super good lock, and use it on all the flint mountain rifles I make.  I would find something with a quality barrel and lock so  you will have the performance.  The design of the stock is something that you have to decide for yourself.  I would choose one that feels great when it is shouldered and the sights are positioned correctly for you.  I have built a few Tennessee Mountain Rifles that used the Chamber's late Ketland lock and a C weight swamped .54 cal barrel.  I was able to make the rifle feel and handle good as well as using the .54 cal barrel that the customer wanted. Tip Curtis usually has several rifles in stock that are in the white.  Very little effort is needed to finish one of these rifles.  I have looked at several of his Lancaster rifles with swamped barrels that felt good.  His number is 615-654-4445 if my memory serves me right.  You could give him a call and see what he has in stock and at what cost.  Good luck, and enjoy shooting. 
                                                                                              Roger Sells

[Mike Brooks]

I've been eyeballing the Pedersoli line, particularly the "Frontier," which is sold by Cabela's as the "Blue Ridge" for $650 (with free shipping at the moment). I like the lines, the long barrel, and the reviews I've read. I've also been eyeing the Tennesee Valley Muzzleloading "Poor Boy" Tennessee or Southern Rifle, which cost over $400 more. If I can explore this project for less money, I'll prefer to, but I don't want to buy a gun that will just frustrate me (or an ugly gun ).

I would choose non of the above. Save a little more money and buy a plain gun from a noted builder.

[smylee grouch]

I would go with a Kibler kit in 54 cal.

[oldtravler61]

  Take this for what it's worth. I have been shooting black powder guns for fifty years. I'm 66 now . Spent most of that time shooting production made guns till a few years ago.
   Then I got to shoot a custom gun made by a well known builder. Save up YOUR MONEY !!
  It's a night an day difference !! You will not be disappointed !! Pick out the builder, check his reputation !
  Then when you sight down on that buck of a life time an the gun goes boom instead of click. You will know what Mike's talking about. Ask me how I know ! Oldtravler

[hanshi]

....and welcome to ALR, Cossack.

[Cossack]

Thanks for the input and kind words. I'm looking into all of the ideas mentioned.

.I've also been eyeing the Tennesee Valley Muzzleloading "Poor Boy" Tennessee or Southern Rifle, which cost over $400 more. If I can explore this project for less money, I'll prefer to, but I don't want to buy a gun that will just frustrate me (or an ugly gun ).

I would choose non of the above. Save a little more money and buy a plain gun from a noted builder.

I understand many of the complaints with the Pedersolis but please fill me in about why you don't recommend the TVM guns. Most of what I've heard so far has been positive.

Also - does anyone know roughly what the wait time is on the TVMs for a complete rifle?

[Eric Krewson]

No wait time for a Tip Curtis rifle if he has what you are looking for and he probably does. I was in his shop a few years ago and it appeared that his rifles were better built than TVM rifles. Nothing against TVM, they are a little generic but not bad.

He keeps a good stock on hand;

[Martin S.]

I'll second Tip Curtis.

He sells a quality rifle or smoothy at a fair price.

[Bill Raby]

I have a Pedersoli Brown Bess and I think its great. But my hand made rifles are better. You will enjoy a rifle that you built yourself more than any rifle that you would ever buy. And building yourself might go faster than saving up the extra money for one that someone else built.

[Cossack]

I'm thinking I'll call Tip Curtis and TGM as soon as I can get the chance to check availability.

Another consideration - where do the DGW Miroku Tennessee rifles fit on this quality spectrum? Closer to the Pedersolis or to the American made semi-custom guns?

[Mauser06]

Our very own classified section is a great place to look. Very seldom does something get posted that isn't worth buying. 


Figure out the rifle style you like and go from there on figuring out where to get one. 


A Lehigh is a completely different rifle than say a Jaeger.   



Dont be afraid of a smoothbore.  I'd actually lean towards recommending one actually...if you do any small game or turkey hunting. I can literally hunt anything in the county with my 62cal smooth rifle.  This year I've shot 2 deer and a turkey with it as well as squirrels...and missed a pheasant and a couple rabbits.  Load it with shot or a round ball...fun at the range and deadly as anything out to 50yds.. probably farther..I haven't shot it farther yet as most my deer are shot within 50yds.

Mine is built as a smooth rifle with a rifle style stock and front and rear sight. Not so great for wing shooting but do-able.


Good job doing research and asking questions.   

I have no experience with anything you're asking about...other than my smooth rifle was built from a Tip Curtis "Dubb's Fowler" precarve..picked up here on the classefieds from the guy who built it.

[Cossack]

How much functional difference is there between a 38" and a 42" barrel? I've found a couple promising looking Pennsylvania-style guns with .38" barrels. They're not quite as pleasing to my eye as a longer barrel, but I also want to know the practical difference - does the difference in sight radius make it easier to shoot a 42" well? If the barrels are not swamped on either, how much does the extra few inches affect balance?

Also - if I were to try a kit myself, with no previous experience (other than basic woodworking and tools) which kit maker would you recommend for a novice? The finishing of metal or wood doesn't intimidate me, but inletting stocks and drilling metal on a $1k kit does a bit.

[Mauser06]

I have a 1" 50cal barrel on a half stock. I think it's 28".  It's WAY front heavy.

I have a 44" and 38" swamped octagon to round..both barrels are identical otherwise.  They balance and feel awesome.  My 38" is my new turkey gun and it's lighter than modern guns.

They carry much better than you'd think. I was blown away. My 44" is a bit over 9lbs..I was shocked when I saw it weighed that much. Doesn't feel like it.   

Accuracy and shooting...sight radius and a little velocity is about it...but I wouldn't say it would make a huge difference unless you're talking bench work or longer range stuff.


Some guys like straight barrels...I'm afraid to try one after feeling that half stock.


Kit wise, if you start with a Kibler kit, pretty much all the hard work is done. Chamber's kits are also supposed to be done very well but require a bit more work.   Kits from the bigger suppliers typically require a lot of work and knowledge...and if you read the forums, lots of guys find many issues with them.  Many have said those precarve kits from the bigger suppliers can take as long as building from a plank. Many times the issues are correctable..but you have to be able to spot them and correct them before you dig too deep. Example..if the lock doesn't line up right...you have to make it line up right before you finish inletting the lock. 

I had no knowledge...or tools before I started.  I am finishing my 2nd and have 3 more builds ready lol. 

I'd say if you only ever plan to build 1 go with a Kibler or don't bother.  Unless you already have all the tools..in my case I had to aquire mostly all the tools....so it was a bit of a start up investment. Between the tools, work space and $800 give or take for the parts, and 100-200hrs, you could find a real nice rifle....

That's the beauty of it all....tons of options.  Just gotta figure out what you want.

[Mike Brooks]

Here, buy this. It will be a bit muzzle heavy, but it has good lines and appears to be put together with some  care. Dirt cheap too.
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/487/1/AAR-164

[Cossack]

Here, buy this. It will be a bit muzzle heavy, but it has good lines and appears to be put together with some  care. Dirt cheap too.
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/487/1/AAR-164

Thanks for the head's up - however, it appears to be spoken for already! How much did it cost?

[WadePatton]

Swamped or go home is how I feel about it. Except for match guns or when the style demands something else. But they cost more because the bbl takes more work to make and also to let in.  So keep saving and something will pop up.  Opportunities are much easier to take advantage of when the change purse is fatter.

[Mike Brooks]

Here, buy this. It will be a bit muzzle heavy, but it has good lines and appears to be put together with some  care. Dirt cheap too.
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/487/1/AAR-164

Thanks for the head's up - however, it appears to be spoken for already! How much did it cost?

Less  than $700. I'm not surprised it's already gone.

[Cossack]

Oh wow. I probably would have jumped on that.

I just got off the phone with Tip Curtis. He's got some in stock that would fit my bill, although of course I can't look at them from here in Montana. Does anyone have a photo of one of his Lancaster or Bucks County rifles? I have a basic idea of what's associated with those regions, but I'd like to see one of his look like.

He says he doesn't sell them in the white anymore. His finished prices are quite competitive with others I've seen so far, though.

[Marcruger]

Just my opinion, but any gun you buy needs these items as the top three considerations:

1 Lock by reputable maker
2 Barrel by reputable maker
3 See the above two

What use is a fancy looking rifle if its heart and brain are junk?  It will only cause you misery in the long run, like dating a pole-dancer. 

I agree with other posting members - keep a weather eye on the For Sale part of these forums.  There are some super deals.  I would worry less about what the rifle looks like, as long as it is decently shaped and has good components. Drop me a PM if you are wondering about components. 

You are wasting your time on the imports.

Tip Curtis makes some wonderful shooting workman-like longrifles, with fine architecture.  He uses Colerain and Green Mountain barrels and Chambers locks (all good).  You can get them finished or un-finished.  Very solid guns and a solid bargain.  You have to call Tip, and talk on the phone.  He doesn't have internet ads, but don't let that stop you.  You also have to mail him a check versus credit card.  Don't let that stop you.  He is a good man. 

Welcome to the forums.  When you get to shooting, look up posts by Daryl.  He gives good advice. 

God Bless,   Marc

[EC121]

A 38" C weight .54 is about ideal for hunting and target shooting.  Handier in the woods and stand.   A 42 or 44 is will hang up on vines etc. a little quicker.  If I was only going to buy one rifle(who does that!!), it would be the .50 or .54 C weight.  Preferably the .54 to save weight.

[Mike Brooks]

A 38" C weight .54 is about ideal for hunting and target shooting.  Handier in the woods and stand.   A 42 or 44 is will hang up on vines etc. a little quicker.  If I was only going to buy one rifle(who does that!!), it would be the .50 or .54 C weight.  Preferably the .54 to save weight.

Good advice. "C" weight in .54 is one of my all time favorites. I have just discovered Rice's "Southern Classic" in .50, another great profile.

[Cossack]

A 38" C weight .54 is about ideal for hunting and target shooting.  Handier in the woods and stand.   A 42 or 44 is will hang up on vines etc. a little quicker.  If I was only going to buy one rifle(who does that!!), it would be the .50 or .54 C weight.  Preferably the .54 to save weight.

Thanks for the tip...although I've never had a problem with vines here in MT 
Although I've gotten a lot of whitetails tromping along a river through the willows, I've never had a shot yet where barrel length would have been an issue. Still that's a valid point and a good consideration.

I've leaned a lot over the last couple weeks and am starting to narrow down my preferences. I've found some promising deals, and now I'm just working through:
Lancaster or Bucks Co. style?
38", 42", or 44"?
.50 or .54?
Maple or Walnut?

Obviously two of those questions are more cosmetic than practical and I just need to make up my mind. Caliber and barrel length (by the way, all options seem to have quality swamped barrels and good locks - I'll make sure before taking leave of my money) may have more serious implications, so any other thoughts in that regard are welcome. However, I think it's mostly down to personal taste and making up my mind between some good options. All are at or under $1600. If there's anything I should be thinking of before I "pull the trigger," I'm all ears!

I can already see myself getting sucked in and getting more (probably a fowler or other smoothbore of some sort), but it's possible that, between the spending on centerfires, guitars, and swords, this could be my only muzzeloader - I might as well do it right!