Author Topic: Professional Profiling Swamped BBL's  (Read 4056 times)

Offline WadePatton

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Professional Profiling Swamped BBL's
« on: July 03, 2018, 06:19:13 PM »
If you've never seen the modern machines used for bbl profiling, you might dig this.  I hadn't.

There may be other styles of profile cutting (I'm no bbl maker) but I expect many are cut this way.  Found in Charlie Burton's FCI pages.





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Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Professional Profiling Swamped BBL's
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2018, 07:12:36 PM »
I don't know what that is but I also know I wouldn't want my fingers anywhere near it!
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Offline WadePatton

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Re: Professional Profiling Swamped BBL's
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2018, 07:22:47 PM »
I don't know what that is but I also know I wouldn't want my fingers anywhere near it!

Not unlike a tree chipper is it?  It is a fearsome bit of cutter ...
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Offline Clark Badgett

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Re: Professional Profiling Swamped BBL's
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2018, 07:36:28 PM »
Looks like a type of horizontal mill. I've never worked in a shop that had one.
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Offline hanshi

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Re: Professional Profiling Swamped BBL's
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2018, 07:36:57 PM »
Not unlike a tree chipper is it?  It is a fearsome bit of cutter ...
[/quote]




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Offline stubshaft

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Re: Professional Profiling Swamped BBL's
« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2018, 07:51:04 PM »
Sure looks to be much faster than a file...
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Offline David Rase

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Re: Professional Profiling Swamped BBL's
« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2018, 08:48:19 PM »
That is a photo from the FCA website.
David

n stephenson

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Re: Professional Profiling Swamped BBL's
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2018, 09:10:39 PM »
Maybe Charlie will tell us about it ?  It is using a  horizontal mill cutter , but it looks like it is special purpose " barrel profiling" machine , built using other machine tool parts? It must work pretty good , judging from the barrels from FCI , that I have used.  Nate

Offline Darkhorse

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Re: Professional Profiling Swamped BBL's
« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2018, 09:34:40 PM »
I wouldn't say right off that machine tool is built specifically for contouring barrels. I've worked in shops that had tools similar to that. You change the holding fixture and cutter and your producing something else. That machine just behind it appears to be a plane, most of the ones I've seen use a simple lathe tool and it just goes back and forth skimming material off the top. The older machine tools like these were belt driven.
I can't see  from this photo how the profile is cut, I assume the cutter head is programmed to move the Z axis (up and down) to machine the profile. Perhaps it's controlled by a NC controller. Old machine tools are often retrofitted to NC operation.
I would think that just off camera to the left is an indexing head screwed into the breech. Starting with round stock the top is profiled to size, then all the holding clamps are loosened and the head is indexed to bring the next side to the top where is it machined. Etc.  This is a simple explanation of the process but it's possibly how it's done.
But I may be way off base. I would like to know more about it.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2018, 09:40:01 PM by Darkhorse »
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Offline Monty59

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Re: Professional Profiling Swamped BBL's
« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2018, 09:43:18 PM »
Here I have two pic's from the one in Bobby Hoyt shop it was a very interesting visit .

Monty





Offline WadePatton

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Re: Professional Profiling Swamped BBL's
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2018, 10:20:35 PM »
That is a photo from the FCA website.
David

I gave credit to "FCI", where I found, it in the OP.  Who is "FCA"? 


I posted partly because I found it interesting and also partly to show how at least one, or some, bbl makers don't just "dial in" a hunk of steel and the machines knock out the rest, but that there are setups and lots of them, and each one as important as the other. That cutter is only getting one flat at a time.

That there's more work involved than some might think, if they are not familiar with old-school machine tools---and cutting oil/coolant/ lube-soaked socks.  :o

« Last Edit: July 03, 2018, 10:31:07 PM by WadePatton »
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Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Professional Profiling Swamped BBL's
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2018, 10:45:16 PM »
Sorry to be a smart ass, but none of the machines shown are any ways near "modern".  Most of these machines are probably mid 20th century.  The only manufacturer that supplies any quantity to the muzzleloading industry to use modern equipment is Jason Schneider at Rice. 

With CNC milling he is able to hold very good tolerances on the barrels exterior dimensions.  This is very important to our kit business as we do not custom fit barrel channels to each barrel.  Every barrel should fit every stock.

Jim

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Professional Profiling Swamped BBL's
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2018, 10:48:56 PM »
It's been several years ago now but I was looking through some photos of the inside of the Green Mountain Barrel shop and they had a machine that looked very much like the one being discussed only it looked like it was doing several barrels at once.

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Professional Profiling Swamped BBL's
« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2018, 11:03:15 PM »
Big,heavy and rigid machines from INDUSTRIAL America and they can be adapted
to CNC. Jim McLemore did that with Bill Large's old 1898 Builders Foundry rifling machine
and it came back to life.I wonder how many times that spiral milling cutter has been reground
and are new ones made today.I have used a horizontal mill when I worked in a nearby shop
that sub contracted for machines made for the coal mining industry. It was made in Sweden
as I recall but it was not anything like these shown here.

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Offline WadePatton

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Re: Professional Profiling Swamped BBL's
« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2018, 12:50:34 AM »
Jim I used the term "modern" in gunmaking to anything we do that wasn't typical of the era we celebrate.

Of course those aren't "modern" machine tools, but there are a lot of them yet in use. Your stuff is "ultra-modern".   ;)



Sorry to be a smart ass, but none of the machines shown are any ways near "modern"...
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Offline WadePatton

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Re: Professional Profiling Swamped BBL's
« Reply #15 on: July 04, 2018, 01:00:50 AM »
It's been several years ago now but I was looking through some photos of the inside of the Green Mountain Barrel shop and they had a machine that looked very much like the one being discussed only it looked like it was doing several barrels at once.

To be sure, ganged multiples type is what I'd expect to find at a high-volume, multi-employee type outfit.   That and an ever-increasing number of CNC-driven machines.

The last big CNC-machine installation I heard about, where a pal bought new, took the engineers 2-weeks on site to get it dialed in right. Yes, they were expecting two days. He builds fixtures upon which things are built.

Hey Bob, saw you mentioned on Jim's site just the other day (when I stumbled across it), hope he is well and doing as much as he want to (same to you).
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Professional Profiling Swamped BBL's
« Reply #16 on: July 04, 2018, 01:08:31 AM »
I remember going through the Getz barrel 'Factory" ;)  when I was out touring in that area....well, on my way to by chickens in New York.... anyway, all their machinery was WWII era or possibly earlier.
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Offline Pennsylvania Dutchman

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Re: Professional Profiling Swamped BBL's
« Reply #17 on: July 04, 2018, 02:15:57 AM »
The two planers in Charlie Burton's shop photo were probably built pre 1920. The one in use in the foreground, has a home made horizontal milling head adapted to it, instead of using a single point tool as the one in the back is set up for. The horizontal mill in Bobby Hoyt's shop photo looks very similar to the #2 Brown and Sharpe mill I have. Mine is a flat belt driven machine also and the last patent date on it is 1910.
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n stephenson

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Re: Professional Profiling Swamped BBL's
« Reply #18 on: July 04, 2018, 02:19:40 AM »
Maybe we should just be glad that we have multiple barrel makers , no matter what their set up is. I hate to think of the price , if there was only one maker trying to keep up with it all !! :o

Offline WadePatton

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Re: Professional Profiling Swamped BBL's
« Reply #19 on: July 04, 2018, 02:41:46 AM »
Maybe we should just be glad that we have multiple barrel makers , no matter what their set up is. I hate to think of the price , if there was only one maker trying to keep up with it all !! :o

This.

It is good to understand just a little bit about the other fellows' trade in order that we don't go around making a big fuss about production times and pricing. I used to want to do every single thing.  But at some point in time you let others help ya, and you don't mind paying them.  8)
« Last Edit: July 04, 2018, 03:33:28 AM by WadePatton »
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Offline Charlie B

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Re: Professional Profiling Swamped BBL's
« Reply #20 on: July 04, 2018, 03:27:32 PM »
Both are bed planes. The one in back is basically "stock" single point cutter run by leather belts.
The machine in front was converted to hydraulics and a shell mill cutter by Jim Goodoien.
The front machine is currently set up for swamped barrels using templates, this makes barrels very close to interchangeable.. I also use an adjustable template that allows me to cut custom swamps within approximately .010.
All of this has been trial and error (the error part is what gets me behind) over the last ten years and a lot of help from Ed Rayl and others including Liston and Jason when I am smart enough to ask.
I am a custom barrel maker that takes the time to shoot my barrels before shipping and if they don't preform they don't ship.
Charlie

n stephenson

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Re: Professional Profiling Swamped BBL's
« Reply #21 on: July 04, 2018, 04:25:22 PM »
Maybe we should just be glad that we have multiple barrel makers , no matter what their set up is. I hate to think of the price , if there was only one maker trying to keep up with it all !! :o

This.

It is good to understand just a little bit about the other fellows' trade in order that we don't go around making a big fuss about production times and pricing. I used to want to do every single thing.  But at some point in time you let others help ya, and you don't mind paying them.  8)
Not really sure I get the idea of this post. I don`t recall complaining about prices YET!!  But since the subject has been brought up , I think it would be a good idea for all the barrel and lock makers to raise their prices to $500 each for a barrel and $500 for a lock. That way we could go ahead and put this sport  to rest in a quick fashion. On second thought , that wouldn't work either, because the "sheeple" would still  line up with their money in hand and singing the wonderful praises of "so and so`s"  wonderful parts. Believe what you want, but the price of parts IS a huge factor in turning away many people that have an interest in these rifles / guns. There is literally no telling how many people I have talked to at gun shows that I "used to" set up at , that were really interested  , until they found out they could by a "nice" modern rifle , for less than the price of flintlock parts. I`m not against anyone making money , it is necessary . I am GLAD that there are still people supplying parts , that is great. I do get tired of the attitude that these suppliers are so great that any arbitrary price increase is greeted with the " oh we are so blessed , these "insert part here" are so great that they are worth whatever Joe Blow wants for them ". With less people willing to reach into their pockets and invest in a shrinking sport , in the way of producing competitively priced parts , don`t look for it to get better . Actually the opposite is on the horizon, when the  "technology" crew gets through running the little guys out of business , you better like paying through the wazoo. Do you really think that when there is one lock or barrel maker left , that they are going to lower their prices! If so , then you are probably smoking something , legal in your area. OK , now all defenders of the" great ones" can pile on , and explain to me how "little " I understand about things.  :o :o
« Last Edit: July 04, 2018, 05:53:57 PM by n stephenson »

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Professional Profiling Swamped BBL's
« Reply #22 on: July 04, 2018, 05:51:52 PM »
Maybe we will split this topic off and start another on the price of historically accurate parts. I think you are well qualified to render an informed opinion, Nate. It sure is a conundrum. A guy in our ML club who is new to the sport and comes from bench test shooting of modern guns bought a Lyman Trade rifle and man he can shoot that gun. At last match another member was selling guns for a widow and the same newb is buying a TC Hawken and thinking about buying another in flint. All said he will have 3 good shooters for about $1100. Would you or I be happy with that stable of guns?  Probably not. This guy will in time begin to covet historical guns but I predict sticker shock.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2018, 07:57:47 PM by rich pierce »
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Offline oldtravler61

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Re: Professional Profiling Swamped BBL's
« Reply #23 on: July 04, 2018, 07:35:11 PM »
  Well getting back to the machines. Before I retired I was working for a company that used several multi-head CNC machines. Amazing the tolerances they can hold. Plus or minus  five tenths of a thousands per inch. Day in day out.
  The machine pictured earlier reminded me of our old helical gear cutting machine we had. Swear on came over from Britain in the Mayflower but I could be mistaken.       Oldtravler

Offline bob in the woods

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Re: Professional Profiling Swamped BBL's
« Reply #24 on: July 04, 2018, 09:02:20 PM »
I noticed that there is a blatant lack of safety shields on the equipment, same as in my shop  ;D