New "builder"/"finisher" needs help

[Sweet Pete]

Hello All, Im new to the forum, muzzleloaders, flintlocks, etc etc. I would like your advise and opinions on finishing an "in the white" rifle I just received. I suppose I jumped into this project a little ahead of my research, but I have a mule deer hunt in October I plan to use this rifle for... Once I received the rifle Im now feeling a bit in over my head and not sure where to start. At the risk of asking a dumb question how much disassembly would I do to finish? I plan on leaving the hardware in the white and stain the stock with aqua fortis. Below are some things that I think I see. Thanks in advance.


I think there is some fitment issues with the buttplate.

Fitment with the nose cap

The stock tapper seems to be uneven lengths, which I think is causing a odd shape on either side of the tang (when viewed from behind.

The butt stock, trigger guard and fore end of stock seem to be twisted

The lines on the stock around the barrel need to be evened. A little high in front of the lock (& elsewhere) and the forearm with is a little wavy.

How proud or flush should the lock/side plates and trigger guard be of the stock?




Arthur William Edgar O'Shaughnessy biography

[Sweet Pete]

Stoner Creek, I appreciate your reply.
Just to be clear, this isn't my work and therefore don't deserve any of the credit. My apologies if my cheeky subject line was misleading. Im just looking for some pointers on taking it to the finish line.

[Mauser06]

Do you have any wood chisels, rasps, etc?   

You could turn that into a much better looking gun pretty easily with a bit of work. 


A few areas that jump out quickly....

Buttplate fit.  There's several gaps. Only issue is you may have to plug the screw holes in the wood and redrill them after it's properly fit. 

Nosecap fit.  I don't know how that nosecap is fit.  It looks like there's a pretty even gap all the way around which would be an easy fix...if you can get it off.


Reducing the lock panels (the wood surrounding the lock) would really make it look better. While you're at it, simple beaver tails on the mouldings would dress it up a bit. 


Hard to see if there's wood to remove elsewhere...


Barrel looks like it needs draw filed. Not hard.

You could finish it as is and it'll shoot just fine (assuming the lock and trigger work and touch hole is  in the right spot...).  But a little work and it'd look much better...


As far as finishing.  There's a million ways to stain and finish.   Have you ever stained and finished wood??  Personally, anything that is removable, I remove prior to staining/finishing.  Remove the screws, lock bolts and pins and everything comes out of the stock easily.  I soak finish into everywhere I can.  After the first soaking, I don't put finish in any of the inlets again and I don't stain those area.  Seals the wood. 

[Sweet Pete]

Mauser06,
Thank you.
I do have a plethora of tools and a fair bit of wood work experience, and yes, to include staining. I do a little modern gun smithing on my personal firearms.  I just don't have any longrifle building experience.

Is there any tricks to removing the barrel pins? Do I need to tap them thru in the same direction they were installed? This part and the reinstall makes me nervous.
I'll fuss with the nose cap and see what I can figure.
I was afraid that was the solution for the buttplate...thought I was avoiding those type of tasks by getting an "in the white" build.

Thanks for taking the time to look at my rifle and your advise. I appreciate it.

[Ky-Flinter]

Hi Pete,

Welcome to ALR.  Since you didn't build this gun, I'm going to be blunt.  The workmanship is poor, but I agree with Mauser, I don't see anything that can't be fixed, or at least improved.  Given the workmanship we can see, the following needs to be checked closely.

Is the lock bolster fitted tightly against the barrel, with no gaps?  Is the touch-hole drilled, and in the right place?  Does the lock and trigger function correctly?  If all this is good, you could shoot the gun as is.  Practice your shooting over the next 2 months, go kill that big fork-horn and then take your time finishing the gun over the winter.

Other cosmetic issues. 
- The surface of the lock panel needs to be taken down until the bevel on the lock plate is just proud of the wood.  Also the width of the lock panels above and below the lock should be narrower, about an 1/8".  The round nose and pointed tail are about right now, just blend in the narrower upper and lower.
- The trigger guard looks like it is sunk into the wood.  If the guard has a bevel on the front and rear tang, the bevel should be flush with the wood, not below it.  Sand the wood until you can see a little of the guard above the wood, when viewed from the side.

-Ron

[Mauser06]

Nosecaps are usually rivetted or screwed in place... probablem is, even if you get those out, it may be glued/epoxied as well....

Thinking out loud...but maybe easier to inlay a piece of sheet or wire steel or brass or even copper into the gap....cover a mistake and call it decoration. Lol.


The buttplate doesn't need a ton...you can easily plug the holes.  Get a hardwood dowel that matches a drill bit you have that's big enough to fill the screw hole...drill the screw hole to match the dowel and glue the dowel in and cut it flush with the stock...it works. I learned. Lol. You may be to clean it up and use the existing holes.  The holes in the buttplate itself can be reused.


As far as pins, they should come out either way. Just be really careful. Light taps should move it just fine.  If not try the other direction.  Then unscrew the tang bolt and remove the lock bolt (it looks like that single lock bolt is through the breech plug lug). 

Just remember where each pin came from as they are already cut to the right length.



Really, you don't have a ton to do...like was said, study some pictures of original rifles and/or well built contemporary pieces.  You'll see a few areas you can remove wood and shape a little better...after looking more, ky-flinter pointed out the few others I see...


your ahead of most "kits" or building from a precarve or plank....and sounds like you have the tools and skills to do so...like he said, if all those areas check out, you can shoot and hunt with it.  I spent a day on the range with my current build in April...it's still in my vise. Working on the details to refine it and try to turn out a good looking gun.

You still have a couple months.  If you have the time, you could easily clean it up before fall. But if you're like many of us, time isn't something we have a lot of...

[elk killer]

Tell us where you live, might just be a rifle maker near you that could help

[T*O*F]

Just remember where each pin came from as they are already cut to the right length.

Get a strip of Styrofoam.  Starting at the front of the rifle, as you remove each pin and screw, stick them in the foam in the same order as removed.  Reverse during reassembly.  While the screws don't seem important, each was started in a different clock position and if they have been filed they will return to their original position.

[WadePatton]

Another thing to remember about an "in the white" build is that you have zero scraps of wood to test finishing on.  Why test finish? to see what you'll get in colors.

There are no color guarantees in with AF, and every tree has it's own color.

So agree with Ron (Ky-Flinter) in that make sure the functional fundamentals are in place, and throw some finish on it and start shooting it. Working out your best load and hunting-distance practicing.

Study the style and and techniques and get all your tools sharp as they can be and finalize the fitments and shaping and finish after the hunt is over.  I did this with my deer gun-and my re-finish blended right back in.

The slowest, most painful and tedious way of removing wood is best for learning, once you're satisfied how it should look. Gunmakers know, yes you CAN put wood back when you take too much, but it's much better if you don't.

Find out who is in your area by letting us know where you are. That's going to be your quickest route to best satisfaction.

File that bbl too. 5 flats is all.

[Mike Brooks]

I think there is some fitment issues with the buttplate.

Fitment with the nose cap

The stock tapper seems to be uneven lengths, which I think is causing a odd shape on either side of the tang (when viewed from behind.

The butt stock, trigger guard and fore end of stock seem to be twisted

The lines on the stock around the barrel need to be evened. A little high in front of the lock (& elsewhere) and the forearm with is a little wavy.

How proud or flush should the lock/side plates and trigger guard be of the stock?

Your best solution is to send that thing back to where ever it came from and have the builder fix those problems. (If they are capable)

 I'll add a couple other things that bother me. The barrel is buried too deep in the wood, 2/3rds should be exposed, this can be fixed. The web between the ram rod groove/hole and the bottom of the barrel is too thick giving the gun a clunky appearance, nothing can be done about this. The wood appears to be really soft, nothing you can do about this either.

 All the rest should be addressed by the builder, send it back with a punch list.

[Elnathan]

Since I don't believe anyone else has mentioned it, the cheekpiece could stand a bit of reshaping too. With this style of gun (generic 18th century American, as far as I can tell) it should have a flat panel at the lower end, with the part that your cheek actually rests on being somewhat concave.

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-rXvRYMMezgk/U3v5orGt1eI/AAAAAAABTnw/Q0ryhQo3SBc/s1600/IMG_7984_4_1.JPG
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-1PN9r2K0WQ0/U3v5nxD0OVI/AAAAAAABTnk/wcHlAJkM4K0/s1600/IMG_7988_2_1.JPG

Those two are a bit more concave than optimal for that rifle, being later NC repros, but they show the overall shape pretty well. Hard to find pics of that angle.


Edited to add: Top and bottom rifles in this pic: https://4.bp.blogspot.com/_vb_Yo_ELC48/THmAXVfjHMI/AAAAAAAAfpc/Lf2eNNmywhg/s1600/DSCN4837.jpg

[PPatch]

I going to agree with Mike B. on this -> that gun is NOT "in the white" and shows many problems. one of the biggies is the stock not being fully shaped. In the white means complete and ready to finish. In your case there is  lot of woodwork to be done yet, and that butt plate, for one thing, is not properly inlet, and, as Mike said the barrel is too deep. Plus it needs draw filing which should have been done prior to it being bedded. That tang inlet is awful and whomever filed it did a poor job. The front finial on your trigger guard is way off - the guard should have been straightened prior to being inlet. The gap between your ramrod and the barrel is not correct, the RR should fit snug up to the barrel.

In short, you've been sold a pig in a poke - return it. I wouldn't bother asking the seller to fix it given what they sold you. You can do better "away," as is say in the stock market business - away from that company selling a sub par product.

dave

[Chowmi]

I'm with Mike and PPatch on this one as well. 

Send it back, order a Kibler colonial rifle and you will have a far better quality rifle.  You say you have woodworking and gunsmithing experience, if so, you could put the Kibler kit together in 2-4 days (less time than trying to fix the problems on your gun), and when you have done that you will have a quality gun "in the white" and learned something along the way.  Jim has just put out a few videos that will help you build it.  It's already an easy build and the videos would make it easier. 

That's what I would do.

Cheers,
Norm

[Kingsburyarms]

Pete, Welcome to ALR.... I'm also a new "builder" and agree with Mike, PPatch and others, and that advice should help you along. Looking at each image, it does look like there is a lot of work to do, and a lot of corrections to be made, and as a new builder, correcting errors are hard to do (as you know through your gunsmith work) I would ask myself the following:

1) Did you order a gun from a builder to be "in the white" and ready to go so you can finish and shoot it - if so, before you do anything, is give them a call and return it for what you paid them. there are much better ways to get a better rifle in the white.
2) If not number 1, was the builder a family member or very close friend you don't want to offend? if so, you can do some of the things suggested and clean it up a little, finish it and just shoot it.
3) Was it free or just handed to you? If that's the case, then I would play around with cleaning it up, adding some sort of finish and just shoot the thing.

If you are going to keep it - is the lock tight up against the barrel (no gap between the pan and the barrel side)? Is the barrel touch hole centered in the pan and level with the top of the pan? Does the half cock and full cock work smoothly without any binding of wood in the stock? Does the trigger have a little "play" in the half cock and full cock position?  Does is spark? is the barrel tight in the barrel channel?  These are some of the basics that no matter what you do to it, if these things are not either corrected or in place, doesn't matter what you do to it, it won't be a fun Deer rifle. if you can ensure it's safe, it operates smoothly, it's a "name brand" barrel and it's tight, then you either have a "Sorta rifle that looks like one from far away (Deer don't know the difference)" or a long and frustrating project ahead of you.

Interesting to see - send pictures of the lock, touch hole and make sure it's SAFE.

Jon

[Sweet Pete]

Gentlemen,
I appreciate all the comments and guidance. It makes me feel better that my initial assessment of the some of the quality and it not being as in the white as I expected is on par with your views too. To be fair, I haven't taken up my concerns with the builder. I should do so, however due to some family health issues it took him two months longer than  originally estimated to ship the rifle. I realize I wasn't paying super top dollar but what I received is disappointing.

I think I figured out how to change my profile to show Im located in New Mexico. Good call on that.

Elnathan, I'm not sure I would have noticed the cheekpiece shape, but I completely see what you are describing. And yes, "Early VA" is the style-ish.

The lock and trigger function properly. Ive added photos of the touch-hole and lock bolster to barrel fitment.

Any reason there'd be a pin below the lock plate?

[conquerordie]

The pin is for the front lug on the triggerguard. It's what is holding it to the stock, at least that what it loo!s like. If you decide to take on the project it is doable. Sorry it's not what you were hoping for.
Greg

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Is it reasonable to return it as suggested?  If not you have a lot of good suggestions above. The misaligned trigger guard is my biggest concern. it can be corrected and reinlet, if you have some filler wood....your decision whether to live with it or not. The nose cap has wood standing proud all around. it could be scraped down to the same height as the cap... the gap between the wood and nosecap could be reduced if you take the cap off. On the other hand the gap can be come pretty much invisible if you finish the gun with the cap on. You could even try steaming it a little first to see if it will close the gap. You can close most of the gaps around the buttplate with a ball peen hammer and then filing/scraping the wood and and metal to round off the edges. Finish will help the gaps disappear as well. The lower forestock needs serious shaping as mentioned and the stock between the tang and the top of the lock panels usually looks best if  angled down, but flat, gradually becoming concave as you proceed down to the wrist. look at several pictures before removing any wood.

I usually stain with all metal off, but finish with the metal on except for the lock and barrel. Hope we have helped you decide what to do. Is this gun a tool or a piece of art...makes a difference.... it is not a good start for a piece of art, but with some work could be a good tool.. ALSO please pull the breech plug and test to see that it is properly seated in the barrel...safety issue.

[Sweet Pete]

Kingsburyarms, Thanks for the welcome.
You're right, my idea with an in the white build was to avoid fixing things, do a little finishing work then get to the shooting... You all are starting to convince me to send it back despite my timeline.

I purchased the rifle from a builder here on  ALR to be in-the-white. I did a fair amount of looking around and thought I was dealing with better workmanship. Maybe theres two builders with the same name?

The lock (to me) seems to half-cock and cock smoothly without binding and the trigger does "jiggle" a bit in both positions. I haven't tried to spark it yet.

[Keb]

It is pretty much against the rules to name names of a particular guy who does this kind of work and that's too bad. It would sure help buyers when making a decision on 1st time buying. I got hosed on my 1st purchase from (I'm guessing) what looks like to be the same builder. I never heard any negative about him so I bought. It was not a good decision. I contacted him and he told me to sell the gun but wouldn't refund my money. I was just stuck with a worthless gun. 

[Kingsburyarms]

If you can send it back, do so, and get a refund - You can finish a Kibler faster than just fixing the butt plate on this one. If you can't - all the guys on the forum here are wonderful to work with, and will help guide you through "making this tool work"

Safety first.....

Jon

[Eric Krewson]

Just guessing but I have seen that kind of work before and we probably all know who did it without being told. If so, he is not a good person to deal with to correct his errors. Sometimes going cheep comes back to bite you in the behind.

[Hungry Horse]

Just to add insult to injury, it looks like there is no touch hole liner. It appears in the picture the touch hole has been worked over with a countersink.
 If you get stuck with it, a white lightning liner would be a good upgrade.

  Hungry Horse

[Eric Krewson]

The good part is you are going to learn a lot about gun building while you fix all the poorly done work on that rifle. You will probably end up with a pretty good shooter, if you use a darker stain when you finish the stock you will be able to cover up all the patching you are going to have to do.

I would start with wood alongside the barrel as it is pretty easy to do. It may be time to buy a good reference book so you can see how the stuff is supposed to look and go from there.

[WadePatton]

It is pretty much against the rules... wouldn't refund my money. I was just stuck with a worthless gun.

It's against good manners and gentlemanly conduct to go shooting out mouths off about wares or work before the product maker has a change to rectify the situation, not so much "rules".  Rare do you find Gentlemen these days, but we try to be.

Also

You get about what you pay for,

every time.


or in the Latin: Caveat Emptor 

[Mauser06]

Another possible option...if you can't return that rifle...and have extra cash....


Order a Kibler Colonial kit (I don't know the current wait times though...). Finish the Kibler and hunt with it this year. Then you can correct the one you have and give it the proper attention...you can likely bring a decent rifle out of the one you have...


I look back at my first half stock precarve build and wish I had spent the money and time one something different...but, I learned a TON from it...and it's absolutely deadly in the woods.  So, I don't regret it one bit.  If I never ended up with that "mistake" I wouldn't be where I am now...still learning..but, I wouldn't be where I am without learning from that first build.  I call it a mistake as I thought I was buying a Thompson Center replacement stock..finish it and put it together... Really, it was a precarve with a lot of extra wood and a lot of work to do.  I didn't even own a chisle or rasp or have the slightest clue how to turn it into a gun.  But I wanted to learn....just "not so soon" lol.