Pyrodex and Real Powder Info

[OldMtnMan]

I'm a little slow on the uptake. So help me here...

Pyrodex is bad. I've garnered that much.

If you are doomed to only being able to buy subs, are you better off using 777?

Mike

I think most of us can't buy real powder locally. We buy it online. Can you do that? I get mine from Graf's and Sons.

[Mike from OK]

Nah, I can buy Goex at BPS... And on a work trip I made a detour to Mexico, MO and stopped at Graf's... Picked up some Goex OE, Swiss, and some of Graf's house brand ( made by Wano )

I'm good on the real stuff for a while.

I'm asking about 777 for those who don't have ready access or haven't hit the bullet on mail ordering BP.

Mike

[Mike from OK]

BTW...

Graf's is having a sale on BP right now. Everything is 10% off.

In case anyone is interested.

Mike

[OldMtnMan]

Not sure how I was to know you weren't talking about yourself? No matter. It applies to everybody who doesn't live in a state that can't get BP shipped to them.

If I couldn't get it shipped to me i'd find a way to get it. I'd never use a sub in a sidelock.

[rfd]

black powder is all that's needed.  period.

whether or not they're more corrosive than real black powder (and they all are), all the faux black powder concoctions are smokeless variations that are more difficult to pan ignite with a flintlock.  we do love our flinters, don't we?

there is no excuse for not using black powder.  no, 95% of us won't find it locally and need to mail order it out.  deal with it and be done with it. 

the more black powder that's used, the more reason for black powder factories to make and offer the stuff we Require.  for them, it's all about the money.  good for them, let's give it to 'em.

so buy black powder and enjoy all its benefits over that white devil dust cr@p, while at the same time insuring that the good commercial black powder will always be made available.

[Daryl]

Mr. Monk once said if he had to use a 'phony' powder, it would likely be T-7 due to it's lack of perchlorates.

[rfd]

really, just say NO to any phony powder.  not at all hard to say, or do.

[WadePatton]

really, just say NO to any phony powder.  not at all hard to say, or do.

[emphasis added]

Well, you know, it kinda is hard to do for guys/gal located in more restrictive areas than others.  I have heard more than once that these areas exist, and my statement reflects the assumption that it is true.

The information above about t7 from Bill (MadMonk) is the best on the subject most folks will ever hear.  If I was trapped in an area of limited access to powders (assuming no connections to other areas), I'd likely use t7 instead of making my own BP.

As tiring as it gets repeating most all of these words again and again, I quite thank Bill, and others of chemistry-professional ranks, for setting straight those who will listen .  AS more of this information becomes well-known to the BP shooting public, the less demand for perchlorated-powders will be.  And when no one will buy it, they'll quit making it.

So this mostly repetition, over and over (same as advertising/brain-washing) is what it may take to get just a FEW MORE pilgrims to understand the damage possible/probable to their beloved firearms using perchlorated powders. 

Pessimistically- Probably in 2 or 4 hundred years folks will understand how bad it can be.  Optimistically-keep talking about it, let the world begin to understand how perchlorate mercilessly attacks steel every chance it gets--and is why many folks won't use it and sometimes go to great lengths to acquire and keep a good supply of genuine powder.

[rfd]

for the very most part, real bp can be mail ordered.  it's how most of us get it, one way or t'other.  if there are parts of the states that make bp illegal to own and use (really?) that's a totally different story entirely.  other than that, you can find it and get it.  didn't say it would be easy and where there's a will there's a way. 

[WadePatton]

for the very most part, real bp can be mail ordered.  it's how most of us get it, one way or t'other.  if there are parts of the states that make bp illegal to own and use (really?) that's a totally different story entirely.  other than that, you can find it and get it.  didn't say it would be easy and where there's a will there's a way.

Exactly.  There are extremely restrictive jurisdictions in these very United States, and as well there are a good number of folks here who do not live in these United States.  I cannot speak with veracity of their restrictions or viable work-arounds, but that some of those folks may not be able to mail-order as many of us obviously do.

Some folks go to great lengths to get real powder.  Others don't (assuming legality), mostly because they don't know how despicable perchlorates are, or because they do not understand how to get 3 or 6 guys together and make a mail-order purchase that seems "affordable" to them all.  I agree some don't "try hard enough", but that there are others who actually cannot get it.

Speaking of "economy" if folks would BUY IT at the stores who offer it up locally, less of them would quit handling it. But there we go again pinching pennies in the wrong places.  They tell me that some of the big catalog-type stores have some in the back, but you must request it as they don't advertise this fact.  I don't know I never shop those places-and if I do it's never for guns or related.

 I hold that the more folks understand perchlorated powders, the more folks will TRY HARDER to acquire BP rather than destructive and toxic concoctions for propellant.  Ignorance is not a crime (stop believing advertisers is a big step), if we can help reduce such, then eventually the steel-destroying perchlorates will become unprofitable and disappear.  But we have to spread the word to those who will listen. 

If I ever get my hands on some more perchlorate-rich steel eater, I'll make a video.  Seems that kids these days believe only the youtube.  But don't hold your breath (unless in the presence of cyanide-rich fumes of Hodgdon's formula) for me to make the video as I'm not in any hurry to find any Pyro-stuff.  I sure as shanties won't be buying any at retail. Won't need much.

[OldMtnMan]

I can buy the minimum amount of Goex at Graf's (5lbs) and even with Hazmat fees and shipping charges it still comes out cheaper than going to a local shop and buying T7.

[Mike from OK]

for the very most part, real bp can be mail ordered.  it's how most of us get it, one way or t'other.  if there are parts of the states that make bp illegal to own and use (really?) that's a totally different story entirely.  other than that, you can find it and get it.  didn't say it would be easy and where there's a will there's a way.

Exactly.  There are extremely restrictive jurisdictions in these very United States, and as well there are a good number of folks here who do not live in these United States.  I cannot speak with veracity of their restrictions or viable work-arounds, but that some of those folks may not be able to mail-order as many of us obviously do.

Some folks go to great lengths to get real powder.  Others don't (assuming legality), mostly because they don't know how despicable perchlorates are, or because they do not understand how to get 3 or 6 guys together and make a mail-order purchase that seems "affordable" to them all.  I agree some don't "try hard enough", but that there are others who actually cannot get it.

Speaking of "economy" if folks would BUY IT at the stores who offer it up locally, less of them would quit handling it. But there we go again pinching pennies in the wrong places.  They tell me that some of the big catalog-type stores have some in the back, but you must request it as they don't advertise this fact.  I don't know I never shop those places-and if I do it's never for guns or related.

 I hold that the more folks understand perchlorated powders, the more folks will TRY HARDER to acquire BP rather than destructive and toxic concoctions for propellant.  Ignorance is not a crime (stop believing advertisers is a big step), if we can help reduce such, then eventually the steel-destroying perchlorates will become unprofitable and disappear.  But we have to spread the word to those who will listen. 

If I ever get my hands on some more perchlorate-rich steel eater, I'll make a video.  Seems that kids these days believe only the youtube.  But don't hold your breath (unless in the presence of cyanide-rich fumes of Hodgdon's formula) for me to make the video as I'm not in any hurry to find any Pyro-stuff.  I sure as shanties won't be buying any at retail. Won't need much.

I think the main hurdle to retailers stocking real BP is the onerous storage requirements... When I would buy it at Bass Pro it was a 30 minute ordeal. I don't know where the sales guy had to go to get it, but it was a hike.

Even Graf's does not keep the powder on the same site as their store... You give the clerk a list of the powder(s) you want and someone has to climb in a car and drive to their powder magazine.

And per local ordanance, real BP is not permitted to be sold in the city limits of Joplin, MO at all.

Contacting elected officials and working to loosen ATF ( possibly NFPA too ) regs might make it more available.

Mike

[Mike from OK]

I can buy the minimum amount of Goex at Graf's (5lbs) and even with Hazmat fees and shipping charges it still comes out cheaper than going to a local shop and buying T7.

Very good point.

Mike

[OldMtnMan]

I know one restriction on selling BP is it has to be kept in a safe. Our local shop used to carry it until they came up with this law. He said he didn't sell enough to make it worth it.

[WadePatton]

I know one restriction on selling BP is it has to be kept in a safe. Our local shop used to carry it until they came up with this law. He said he didn't sell enough to make it worth it.

 

Exactly.  If at all possible, even if you burn 100# per year and buy it all online, buy a can or two from any local vendor now and then--just to help them justify their hassles. Use "cost averaging" to make the few dollars more melt away into your consumption figures (keeps the accounting dept happier).  We lose valuable options in the good Mom and Pop's because bargain hunting can be short-sighted. I hate losing locals and getting stuck with supermegalowmarts dominating all sales.

[OldMtnMan]

I'd buy it all locally if I could. I live in the boonies and have to drive 60 mi to a local gun store. He doesn't carry BP. He'll sell me lots of fake powder though.

My only option is online.

[shootrj2003]

I have not paid attention to the sub powders for a long while,So I am given to understand that there still is no satisfactory sub for black P in Flintlocks ? This amazes me in this day and age but,like I say,I quit looking a long time ago,I get mine in PA. It is interesting to note that the soil on Mars has quite a bit of perchlorates in it!

[shootrj2003]

I can only get BP from small shops in PA.none of the big stores ever bother with it that I know of.

[rfd]

for a flintlock, we NEED real black powder.  h3ll, we ALL need real black powder for ALL our 18th and 19th century guns!!!  stop it already with the fake powder!!!  that stuff always was and always will be INFERIOR to good real black powder (aka "gunpowder").

local stores are Heavily fed regulated as to the storage of black powder because it's listed as an explosive.  and add in the low demand for it, and it ain't worth the little ROI yer LGS would reap for offering it in the first place. 

again, for *most* of us, we mail order bp.  you can usually save the shipping and hazmat by ordering in 25lb lots.  too much to outlay at one time?  make it a group buy with friends or a club or a range. 

the thing is, this is always all about manufacturer profits.  the more consumer demand for bp, the more likely it will still be available and the manufacturers will do the necessary DC lobbying to keep it available to we, the consumers.  worst case scenario, we make our own bp, and don't think it'll never come down to that. 

PLEASE consider spending the extra dollars and support the continued manufacturer offerings of real black powder.  i thank you and so will yer guns.  promise.

[Hungry Horse]

Boy, I’d like to know where these “highly restricted” areas are. I live in California, where our restricted areas, have restricted areas, and I can get powder mail order.

  Hungry Horse

[rfd]

Boy, I’d like to know where these “highly restricted” areas are. I live in California, where our restricted areas, have restricted areas, and I can get powder mail order.

  Hungry Horse

many decades ago i wished i lived in cali, now i feel sorry for those who do.  just as there are those who feel sorry for me living in jersey.  talk about gun restrictions, jersey is absolutely among the worst .... ack.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Mike,

I think to answer your question, yes 777 is a better option than Pyrodex if BP is not available;  from the perspectives of corrosion and toxic gases. 

The storage requirements for BP are ridiculous and unnecessary.  To buy BP they have to leave the building and open a locked bunker?  Meanwhile, on your way to the register you can grab a can of Coleman fuel and propane off the shelf.

[Mike Brooks]

This chloride pit corrosion was one of the driving forces behind the development of the 777 powder.  It is free of any chlorides and will not pit corrode the bore.  When the in-line crowd went to plastic sabot carrying pistol bullets the minute crystals of chloride left by Pyrodex made reloading without cleaning difficult at best.  So getting rid of the potassium perchlorate became a must in the 777 development project.  While the 777 is a bit more difficult to ignite, compared to Pyrode, it is a far better powder.  More powerful and very clean burning.  Being more powerful you can use less of it in a load.  It's post combustion residue, as with black powder, may cause light surface rusting it will not pit corrode the bore.

Bill K.
[/quote]

Hey Bill,  I think they put the chlorides back into 777 powder.  I just checked the SDS for Pyrodex and 777 and they both have potasium percholrate.

Regardless, BP is classified as an explosive and requires a special license and storage requirments.  Most gun shops just don't want the hassle, especially since the demand is pretty low and the substitutes are classified as a powder.  Agree or disagree, it's a fact of life.  Locally, there's only one shop that carries it and they price it accordingly.
[/quote]

That's why most folks here have real BP delivered to their door. Easy peasy.

[Huntschool]

Back in the day (1980's) wife and I ran a wholesale distribution outfit and GOEX was a big part of it.  ATF required that a retail outlet store their BP in a locked "magazine" of no more then 50 lbs.  No big deal, we had magazines available with double locks....

I  seem to remember when BP was reduced from a class I explosive to something less (class III maybe)  but no storage requirements were changed.  The ATF license was required but that was it.  This was back in the days when BP sold for less then $10.00/lb. We bought from 3000-5000 lbs. at a time.... to sell wholesale

It blows me away to see the prices today and then there is the Haz Mat stuff..... Crazy.

Support you local guy that has jumped through the hoops.  Ordering a split order fro mail order folks is ok or buying by the day at Friendship if you can is also good for those that get there.

 

[Mike from OK]

Mike,

I think to answer your question, yes 777 is a better option than Pyrodex if BP is not available;  from the perspectives of corrosion and toxic gases. 

The storage requirements for BP are ridiculous and unnecessary.  To buy BP they have to leave the building and open a locked bunker?  Meanwhile, on your way to the register you can grab a can of Coleman fuel and propane off the shelf.

Thanks.

And I agree,  the irony of safe storage requirements for BP and not Coleman fuel/propane are not lost on me.

Mike