Author Topic: Pyrodex and Real Powder Info (Read 15098 times)

OldMtnMan · « **on:** September 23, 2018, 07:30:47 PM »

I'm having a heated discussion about Pyrodex being more corrosive than black powder. I'm on the side of black powder of course.

I can show lots of opinions taking my side but the other side can do the same. Does anybody have any scientific proof that Pyrodex is more corrosive than BP?

Mike Brooks · « **Reply #1 on:** September 23, 2018, 07:55:04 PM »

Not scientific, just my own observation, Pyrodex is far more corrosive than real BP.

Hungry Horse · « **Reply #2 on:** September 23, 2018, 08:37:44 PM »

Ahhh, Mike and I finally agree, I can die happy.

Hungry Horse

J Henry · « **Reply #3 on:** September 23, 2018, 09:19:52 PM »

Shoot what you have, just do a good cleaning after, and you will have no problems,shot it from the swamps of Georgia,and Virginia/Maryland to the winters here in Maine,never had a problem.SECRET cleaning,and cleaning some more. Not science,,bees can not fly according to them ( science )

moleeyes36 · « **Reply #4 on:** September 23, 2018, 10:27:57 PM »

Quote from: OldMtnMan on September 23, 2018, 07:30:47 PM

I'm having a heated discussion about Pyrodex being more corrosive than black powder. I'm on the side of black powder of course.

I can show lots of opinions taking my side but the other side can do the same. Does anybody have any scientific proof that Pyrodex is more corrosive than BP?

Do some searches on ALR using the search function and you will find a lot of scientific proof from folks that are chemists or have just done thorough testing, that go into how the perchlorates in Pyrodex destroy the bore, even when cleaning the gun well after shooting. Try postings from Mad Monk about Pyrodex or perchlorates for some facts on the subject.

Mole Eyes

Mike Brooks · « **Reply #5 on:** September 23, 2018, 10:57:28 PM »

I destroyed the bores of two old breechloading shotguns using Pyrodex. Once it gets into small little pits it turns them into LARGE pits over time. Never had that problem with black powder.

Dennis Glazener · « **Reply #6 on:** September 23, 2018, 11:41:10 PM »

Ok OldMtnMan here is a thread that should help your "discussion": http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=38532.0

Have fun.
Dennis

stubshaft · « **Reply #7 on:** September 24, 2018, 03:18:35 AM »

I only use Pyrodex in SS guns or chrome lined barrels. I was shooting a brand new Bobby Hoyt relined barrel and observed small brown rust spots developing in the bore while shooting. I had thought that prior reports were fabricated until I saw them for myself.

OldMtnMan · « **Reply #8 on:** September 24, 2018, 04:06:28 AM »

Quote from: Dennis Glazener on September 23, 2018, 11:41:10 PM

Ok OldMtnMan here is a thread that should help your "discussion": http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=38532.0

Have fun.
Dennis

I should have remembered Dennis. I posted in that thread. I'm a dummy sometimes.

It's all a moot point now. The owner of the forum who you guys ran off this forum just banned me. He didn't like me telling him he should use black powder if he's going to own a traditional muzzleloader forum. He also didn't like me saying Pyrocrap is more corrosive than black powder. He was supposed to be a good friend.

Oh well, I like it better here anyway. His forum is full of wannabes.

Thanks, guys.

Roughneck · « **Reply #9 on:** September 24, 2018, 04:37:08 PM »

Quote from: Mike Brooks on September 23, 2018, 07:55:04 PM

Not scientific, just my own observation, Pyrodex is far more corrosive than real BP.

I 100% agree with this statement and have had the same experience. I haven't used pyrodex in years and would never use it again.

Bob Roller · « **Reply #10 on:** September 24, 2018, 04:59:05 PM »

Years ago,Lynton McKenzie had a set of barrels from a double barrel shotgun that
had been reamed to the point of being a threat if fired with anything.
He loaded black powder,GOEX in one barrel and Pyrodex in the other as blanks and
fired them. A few days later he said the barrel fired with black powder was cleanable
and the Pyrodex barrel was destroyed.Turning to a verboten venue,I have seen brass turned
to a really weird shade of green with Pyrodex.WHY bother with it.Keep in mind also that
there are people who will argue with proven experience and nothing is settled.

Bob Roller

Lead ball 54 · « **Reply #11 on:** September 24, 2018, 05:15:28 PM »

Okay so I'm going to use black powder only but I can only buy 1 can at a time money issue and a lot of the time it's not available in my stores in the area I believe Pyrodex is not good but what about others like triple7 just asking cause that's sometimes is all that's on the self

OldMtnMan · « **Reply #12 on:** September 24, 2018, 06:34:03 PM »

Quote from: Bob Roller on September 24, 2018, 04:59:05 PM

Years ago,Lynton McKenzie had a set of barrels from a double barrel shotgun that
had been reamed to the point of being a threat if fired with anything.
He loaded black powder,GOEX in one barrel and Pyrodex in the other as blanks and
fired them. A few days later he said the barrel fired with black powder was cleanable
and the Pyrodex barrel was destroyed.Turning to a verboten venue,I have seen brass turned
to a really weird shade of green with Pyrodex.WHY bother with it.Keep in mind also that
there are people who will argue with proven experience and nothing is settled.

Bob Roller

Isn't that the truth Bob. Those hardheads would never admit they were wrong. I'm glad he banned me. Now I don't get frustrated dealing with them. Imagine getting banned for saying Pyrodex is corrosive.

Bob Roller · « **Reply #13 on:** September 25, 2018, 12:05:09 AM »

On another black powder forum I was on there were comments by chemists
who were far more knowledgeable than I that said the fumes(smoke) from Pyrodex
were dangerous (cyanide).

Bob Roller

bob in the woods · « **Reply #14 on:** September 25, 2018, 03:03:53 PM »

Look up what Mad Monk has to say about the various Black Powder substitutes. Some are better than others, some more corrosive, some less stable in humidity [ the sugar based powders] some produce less energy etc etc. Black Powder is the best option. If you use something else, knowing the draw backs is important so you can take steps to alleviate them.

bones92 · « **Reply #15 on:** September 25, 2018, 04:59:48 PM »

The only thing Pyrodex has going for it (IMHO) is that it is available in many more places because the rules regarding black powder. I tried convincing a local bait & tackle shop owner (who also sold muzzleloading accessories) that a BP license would generate business, and that I would advertise his shop on local forums as a place where one could find real BP. He declined due to the cost and requirements of a "explosives license".

The fact that Pyrodex is a "propellant" and BP is an "explosive" is somewhat ludicrous as a grounds for dealer requirements. One can do everything with Pyrodex that he or she could do with real BP, using the right amounts and primer.

Rsl · « **Reply #16 on:** October 08, 2018, 02:08:30 AM »

Pyrodex is garbage. I gave mine away. Too corrosive and hard to clean. If your shooting a percussion try Alliant MZ. Super easy to clean and non corrosive. Good luck.

Daryl · « **Reply #17 on:** October 08, 2018, 08:50:56 PM »

With black powder fouling, if the humidity is above about 35%, will cause oxidation ie: rusting of steel or iron. With humidity below 35%, the fouling is inert.

Pyrodex fouling, if a water based lube is used,(humidity be !@*%&@) now has enough moisture to cause it to convert to an acid-like substance or material, seemingly

dissolving iron molecules, not merely rusting, thus the deep pits. It is barrel-cancer causing. Use it if you like that sort of thing.

Mad Monk · « **Reply #18 on:** November 02, 2018, 10:14:42 PM »

Quote from: OldMtnMan on September 23, 2018, 07:30:47 PM

I'm having a heated discussion about Pyrodex being more corrosive than black powder. I'm on the side of black powder of course.

I can show lots of opinions taking my side but the other side can do the same. Does anybody have any scientific proof that Pyrodex is more corrosive than BP?

I just dropped in to see what has been going on.
To answer your question.
Pyrodex uses 17 parts of Potassium Perchlorate as part of the oxidizer system. Powder combustion converts that potassium perchlorate into potassium chloride. Minute crystals scattered over the surfaces of the bore. Given the right range of relative humidity each of the tiny crystals becomes an electrolytic corrosion cell on the surface of the metal. This "micro-pitting" happens very quickly. It makes the bore's surfaces look dull. Under magnification they are seen to be little pits in the metal. Most shooters who used, or use, Pyrodex find it necessary to frequently check the bore during storage. Once you get surface pitting of the metal it is difficult to insure no traces of the chloride have entered the porous metal in the pits.

This chloride pit corrosion was one of the driving forces behind the development of the 777 powder. It is free of any chlorides and will not pit corrode the bore. When the in-line crowd went to plastic sabot carrying pistol bullets the minute crystals of chloride left by Pyrodex made reloading without cleaning difficult at best. So getting rid of the potassium perchlorate became a must in the 777 development project. While the 777 is a bit more difficult to ignite, compared to Pyrode, it is a far better powder. More powerful and very clean burning. Being more powerful you can use less of it in a load. It's post combustion residue, as with black powder, may cause light surface rusting it will not pit corrode the bore.

Bill K.

smylee grouch · « **Reply #19 on:** November 02, 2018, 10:22:36 PM »

Thanks for stopping by Bill. Your posts are always informative and valued.

Dennis Glazener · « **Reply #20 on:** November 04, 2018, 12:34:35 AM »

Anyone have any thoughts or experience with this stuff? https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2012/07/25/alliant-black-mz-range-test-review/

Dennis

ltdann · « **Reply #21 on:** November 04, 2018, 02:04:23 AM »

Quote from: Dennis Glazener on November 04, 2018, 12:34:35 AM

Anyone have any thoughts or experience with this stuff? https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2012/07/25/alliant-black-mz-range-test-review/

Dennis

It's all I've shot for the last year. As the article said, it's very clean. I can shoot at the range for 3 hours, maybe 40 shots, without ever running a cleaning patch through the gun. My 4f goex in the flashpan easily ignites it with very little if any delay. I have a pretty aggresive cleaning regime, water, wd40, clp and fluid film for storage.

I took the breech off yesterday and looked down the bore and didn't see any pitting....and that's after running about 5 lbs down the barrel. So far so good.

Darkhorse · « **Reply #22 on:** November 04, 2018, 04:28:25 AM »

I've only used one substitute powder since I started shooting ML'ers back in 1976 and that was one can of Pyrodex. At the time it was marketed as non corrosive. So one day after shooting my wife rushed me off to a flick or something and I didn't get a chance to clean it that day. Three days later I took it down to clean it and the bore was already covered with rust. I was able to get it all cleaned out but I never again was tempted to use anything but real blackpowder.
And that's scientific enough for me.

ltdann · « **Reply #23 on:** November 04, 2018, 06:10:07 AM »

[/quote]

This chloride pit corrosion was one of the driving forces behind the development of the 777 powder. It is free of any chlorides and will not pit corrode the bore. When the in-line crowd went to plastic sabot carrying pistol bullets the minute crystals of chloride left by Pyrodex made reloading without cleaning difficult at best. So getting rid of the potassium perchlorate became a must in the 777 development project. While the 777 is a bit more difficult to ignite, compared to Pyrode, it is a far better powder. More powerful and very clean burning. Being more powerful you can use less of it in a load. It's post combustion residue, as with black powder, may cause light surface rusting it will not pit corrode the bore.

Bill K.
[/quote]

Hey Bill, I think they put the chlorides back into 777 powder. I just checked the SDS for Pyrodex and 777 and they both have potasium percholrate.

Regardless, BP is classified as an explosive and requires a special license and storage requirments. Most gun shops just don't want the hassle, especially since the demand is pretty low and the substitutes are classified as a powder. Agree or disagree, it's a fact of life. Locally, there's only one shop that carries it and they price it accordingly.

Davemuzz · « **Reply #24 on:** November 04, 2018, 02:49:43 PM »

Hmmmm.....I never used Pyrodex or 777. A great thread gents! I learn new stuff everyday reading this forum.

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Author Topic: Pyrodex and Real Powder Info (Read 15098 times)

Lead ball 54

ltdann

ltdann

Davemuzz