Barrel Flex

[TommyG]

Yesterday I finished hand inletting a Rayl 42" Oct/round 16 ga barrel for a turkey gun/fowler I'm building.  Have a decent print in the channel, barrel sits nice about .020 below center, leaving me some wood to remove later.  Today I started on the RR channel.  Cut the upper forearm thickness down and started to lay out some lines.  When I put the barrel back in I have close to a 32nd gap on the muzzle end between the barrel & wood.  I'm thinking the wood did what wood does when I cut the forearm thickness and it sprung a bit.  I'm inclined to think that once i take down the upper forearm to it's final thinner dimensions, it probably will not make any difference as the barrel does hold the wood in place.  I'm just a little concerned about flexing the muzzle into place for clamping and drilling pins.  The muzzle end has a .095" wall thickness.  My question is is this something I need to worry about as far as POI and consistent shot grouping?  Figured I would run this by you guys with the fowler experience first.  What say you??   Thanks

[Mike Brooks]

On the gun I'm building now the forestock at the muzzle dropped a 1/2" below the barrel or more after I removed the extra wood on the sides. Lots of stress in wood at times. I ain't worried. Sometimes they bend left, right or up. The only time it made any difference is on a 60" barreled gun with a thin barrel I built some years ago. the wood bent a couple inches to the left and it was enough to make it shoot to the left. I just bent the barrel to the right till it shot straight, no problems after that.

[TommyG]

Thanks Mike.  I was hoping you would weigh in as you have probably built more of these than days in a year.  I didn't think it would be an issue as long as there is a decent barrel-channel fit.  Just figured I would ask and not assume nothin' as I would still be able to correct if needed.

[smart dog]

Hi Tom!!
What Mike said.  Also, if your last pin or key is near the muzzle, that will pull the stock in. If you thin the stock as a fowler should be I would be surprised if any tension from the wood would flex the barrel there.  However, I guess if your barrel walls are really thin perhaps there could be some effect.  I should make clear that I never built a fowler with authentically thin barrel walls.  Mine all have the typical modern made fowler barrels with walls much heavier than most originals. Mike is the go to guy here because I am sure he has had a lot more experience with authentic fowler barrels.   

dave

[TommyG]

Hi Dave, I'm trying my hand at the fowler found in the Moravian gunmaking book 1.  Seems like sort of a Christian Spring with some Lehigh influence.  Your right about the wall thickness.  This one mics out at .095, which I don't think is anywhere near what the originals were.  But I will be sure to take all of your advice and put my forward pin close to the muzzle and not worry too much about it.  Thanks

[jerrywh]

 Personally I wouldn't bend the barrel. I would band the wood.

[Mike Brooks]

Barrel bending was normal in the old days, no big deal.

[P.W.Berkuta]

Tis true that barrel bending was / is common with smoothbores but I think if you wet the wood and secured the barrel into the stock it would conform to the barrel after it dries -- just coat the barrel with a good rust preventive before you place the barrel in the stock.

[jerrywh]

Barrel bending was normal in the old days, no big deal.

   I doubt that.  You can straighten that stock by heating it with a broomstick in the barrel channel.  There is more to bending metal than one might think. If you band a piece of metal and bend it too far or not enough then try to correct it, It does not bend in the same place the second time as it did the first time. As a result you end up with a double bend. any body man worth his salt knows this. I straightened cars for 35 years.

[Goo]

Barrel bending was normal in the old days, no big deal.

   I doubt that.  You can straighten that stock by heating it with a broomstick in the barrel channel.  There is more to bending metal than one might think. If you band a piece of metal and bend it too far or not enough then try to correct it, It does not bend in the same place the second time as it did the first time. As a result you end up with a double bend. any body man worth his salt knows this. I straightened cars for 35 years.

I like Jerry’s idea!  I prefer the stock to warp mid build before the finish gets applied then you can soak, splint, heat (or not) & dry. 

[Mike Brooks]

Barrel bending was normal in the old days, no big deal.

   I doubt that.  You can straighten that stock by heating it with a broomstick in the barrel channel.  There is more to bending metal than one might think. If you band a piece of metal and bend it too far or not enough then try to correct it, It does not bend in the same place the second time as it did the first time. As a result you end up with a double bend. any body man worth his salt knows this. I straightened cars for 35 years.

Have you ever looked at old smooth bored fowling guns? When your shot pattern isn't going where you want it how are you supposed to change POI? Also old forged rifle barrels were routinely bent straight as they were not straight during the manufacturing process.  Don Getz told me he checked all of his barrels and hand straightened any barrels that were bent. I must not know anything about salt.....

[Pukka Bundook]

To add a bit to Mike's post above;

Many longer sporting ( shot ) barrels were found to shoot low, so were bent up a little towards the muzzle to correct this tendency.  (Some also had a built -in 'hump" at breech to counter low shooting)
If checked and not meddled with later, a good few long barrels, (Particularly over 50 " or so) will be found with this upward bend at the muzzle.
FWIW, a Getz 16 bore in my care needed such a tweak to bring the poi up to where I was looking.

All the best,
R.

[jerrywh]

 Mike and others. I'm not saying barrels were not straightened or ever bent. They were, especially when being bored and before being rifled as rifles. In the Belgium armories barrel straighteners examined every barrel before they were stocked.  I'm just telling you what happens when you bend a barrel or any piece of steel or iron. In this particular case he is better off to bend the wood in my opinion. Wood is very easy to bend with nothing but a little heat. Just a heat lamp will work.
i have a Regular brarel straightener if any body wants to buy it and pay shipping.

[Mike Brooks]

I'll sell my barrel bender/straightener too, Two "Regular" 4 X 4 blocks will be much cheaper to ship. I don't own the property where my favorite barrel bending tree grows so I can't sell it.

"Generally" wood warpage will have no effect on a standard weight barrel. I have only had trouble just the one time and it was a light and whippy barrel. After I bent the barrel and mounted it back in the stock you could sight down the gun and the barrel was perfectly straight, the bend I the barrel compensating for the bend in the wood. Simple minds find simple solutions.

[jerrywh]

I had an A weight swamped 45 once that was tight in the stock and didn't shoot right. I just relieved the barrel channel some and it shot fine.

[James Rogers]

It was even standard practice for Indians to bend their trade guns in tree crooks.

[TommyG]

Well guys, I did the RR channel and hole today.  Gonna sink & inlet breach bolster/tang tomorrow.  From there I'll take the side width down a bit and get the lugs in.  It seems already like the wood will simply follow the barrel.  If not, I'll wet her down and hit the forestock with the heat gun.  But I don't think there will be an issue after all.  Thanks again for all your input.

[Goo]

Ive heard a rumor you can tweak shot pattern Point Of Impact by filing the muzzle.    Example if the POI is high and left in the 11 oclock area file a little off the muzzle at 5 oclock area and it will shift the pattern Down an right. 

[Mike Brooks]

Ive heard a rumor you can tweak shot pattern Point Of Impact by filing the muzzle.    Example if the POI is high and left in the 11 oclock area file a little off the muzzle at 5 oclock area and it will shift the pattern Down an right.

I have heard/seen this also. Saw a friend of mine who had to file his S X S barrels WAY back on both sides to get both barrels to shoot center....not a good look.

[Pukka Bundook]

One time I had a double Joe Manton like that Mike.  I didn't like it either.
(No 4505 if I remember right) 

[crankshaft]

    Years ago I saw a video ( film ) of the Savage factory.  A employee  straitening CF rifle bbls would pickup bbls off the line, would look down the bbl, tap it with a hammer, recheck, repeat. 

[Mike Brooks]

Well guys, I did the RR channel and hole today.  Gonna sink & inlet breach bolster/tang tomorrow.  From there I'll take the side width down a bit and get the lugs in.  It seems already like the wood will simply follow the barrel.  If not, I'll wet her down and hit the forestock with the heat gun.  But I don't think there will be an issue after all.  Thanks again for all your input.

I doubt you're going to have any trouble with this.