Oblique flat " scoop"

[Tom Currie]

I have noticed on some contemporary rifles that in order to get the wood between the barrel tang and lock panel or sideplate panel down to the oblique flat on the barrel that some makers today "scoop" out some wood to get it even with the oblique flat on the barrel. In my many hours of looking at RCA1 and 2 I do not see this "scoop" anywhere. Is this just a contemporary " fix" ?  or does it have more merit than that. Anyone got any thoughts on this ?

[George F.]

This is only  MY  opinion. The old original builders used breech plugs that were threaded in the breech  roughly about 1/2" if that. The lock designs we use today are copies of locks used on these early guns. The breech plugs now are threaded in more, pushing the touch hole location farther from the breech, I pretty much think we all know this. And to line the lock's pan center up, we had to move the lock farther from the breech. Add to this the larger touch hole lines we use. Some, including me, don't really like threading the touch hole liners too far into the breech. The scoop I believe solves the dilemma of having a void by the lock panel where gunk, powder, and anything that it will catch.  I guess it is a "contemporary" fix to a dilemma.  ...Geo.

[J.D.]

I don't know if it's specifically what you are talking about, but look at the photos of the Washington Beck. There is a very pronounced dip at the transition from the oblique barrel flat to the side plate panel.

EK made a comment about such transitions on originals, on page 2, of that thread.

God bless,
J.D.

[jerrywh]

This feature is a lot more common on European guns.  even in this country some of them were scooped out there and some of them dove over.

[Dave B]

Here are a couple of photos of originals in this transition area. Some have even more scooping than this.

[Tom Currie]

Dave, Thanks for posting those photos. The smooth transition in the photos looks much better IMHO than the abrupt scoop I've seen which appears almost as a carving feature.  This has always been a tricky area for me.

[Dphariss]

I have noticed on some contemporary rifles that in order to get the wood between the barrel tang and lock panel or sideplate panel down to the oblique flat on the barrel that some makers today "scoop" out some wood to get it even with the oblique flat on the barrel. In my many hours of looking at RCA1 and 2 I do not see this "scoop" anywhere. Is this just a contemporary " fix" ?  or does it have more merit than that. Anyone got any thoughts on this ?

Look at the recent "Frazier Museum"  JP Beck in the antique forum. Last set of photos.

Dan

[Tom Currie]

Thanks Dan, don't know how I missed that pic. Very interesting.

[Roger Fisher]

Thanks for the excellent photos on the 'scoop'!!

I scooped that area on this years smoothy; but I'll be !@*%&@ if I can remember why!

Looks good though!  I like it and I expect I'll find out if thise judges like it or not!

[smart dog]

Hi Tom,
In my opinion, the scoop or roll over to meet the barrel flats looks a lot nicer, more refined, and more graceful than the squared off breech area you see in many of the pictures in RCA. To me, that is all the "merit" it needs.

dave

[G-Man]

The scoop is common and often very pronounced on East Tennessee rifles and some other southern guns as well.  On those long over the comb tang rifles, it accentuates the uninterrupted visual line from the barrel to the buttplate.

Seen a more subtle application of it on some fine English Georgian era fowlers as well, although often there is carving in this area so it is very subtle.

Guy

[J. Talbert]

A number of architectural factors go into whether or not there is a "scoop" there, or even a need for one.  One of the biggest is the combination of breech size, and the size and placement of the lock, height wise, on the side of the barrel.
With a larger breech and the lock placed low, the transition of metal to wood at that oblique flat flows almost in continuous manner, such as in the photos.  In other words, the slope of the wood matches, or nearly matches the slope of the flat - No Scoop at all.

In the opposite situation say a 13/16" straight barrel and a full size Siler lock or, for the sake of example, an even larger lock such as Chambers Early Ketland, the difference between the slope of the oblique flat and the wood directly behind it becomes much more pronounced, and thus the little scoop is used to transition from one to the other.

Sometimes the architecture is such that a gentle taper from one into the other works, but other times such a taper would obliterate the top of the lock molding just behind the barrel and therefore won't work.

That's my take it...

Jeff

[Stophel]

The area between the tang and the lock panels is often concave on Berks county guns...gun 21 included.

Other regions/makers left the area more flat.  Sometimes it just ends abruptly at the barrel breech, with end grain showing, sometimes the flat curves downward to get closer to the barrel flat, and sometimes the corner is just rounded over or beveled off.