Author Topic: Powder Comparisons, Goex, Olde Enynsford and Swiss  (Read 4187 times)

Offline Herb

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Powder Comparisons, Goex, Olde Enynsford and Swiss
« on: December 23, 2018, 11:45:45 PM »
Dan Phariss asks of Olde Eynsford "Does it weigh more or less for the same volume of powder?"  I have done a lot of powder comparisons in rifles I built and have some answers.  Swiss is quite a bit heavier than Goex (or OE).  Here are some results I found over the years.  The first rifle is a .40 Jacob Wigle copy with 70 grains of adjustable brass measure charges, comparing Goex 3F to Swiss 3F and 2F.  I don't know what the actual charge weights were.  So this is a volume comparison.  The first target on the left is Goex 3f, mean velocity is 2201 fps with 36 fps spread.  Next, Swiss 3f gave 2361/40.  Then Swiss 2f 2271/41.

Next is a .45 Leman I built in the GRRW shop in 1978.  Now the charges are from measures weight-corrected to hold 70 grains of each powder, Goex 3f, 2f, OE 2f and 1 1/2f and Swiss 1 1/2f.  You can hold down the Control button and hit the + key to enlarge the pictures.

Next Olde Eynsford 2f and 1 1/2f.

Now Swiss 1 1/2F with wool over powder wads and then without.

Now my latest Kit Carson Hawken copy in .50 caliber.



Herb

Offline msellers

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Re: Powder Comparisons, Goex, Olde Enynsford and Swiss
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2018, 11:58:50 PM »
Herb,
Thanks for sharing all in one place, is some useful thinking material.
Merry Christmas,
Mike

Offline hanshi

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Re: Powder Comparisons, Goex, Olde Enynsford and Swiss
« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2018, 01:12:58 AM »
Thanks, Herb.  Very informative and brings up a few new questions.  Excellent test.
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

Offline Herb

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Re: Powder Comparisons, Goex, Olde Enynsford and Swiss
« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2018, 02:37:38 AM »
I have a lot more I'll gradually post.  My .54 Bridger.  First on left, a 100 grain Goex 2F measure held 106.4 grains of O.E.3F.  Middle, a measure for 100 grains of O.E. 3F.  All patches blew with this powder.  I'm sure it can work well, but I was not interested because O.E. 2F and O.E. 1 1/2F are such wonderful powders.  Center bottom, the 100 grain Goex 2F measure held 102.6 grains of O.E. 1 1/2F.  On the right, 100 grains by weight of O.E. 1 1/2F.

Some of the powders I used, the right one is early Olde Eynsford, the first sold by Bear River Powder at Fort Bridger.  Top rifle is my copy of the Bridger Hawken, then my engraved Hawken, then a .58 flintlock.  The 100 grain-weight Goex 2F measure held 117 grains of Swiss 1 1 /2F, no tapping or settling.  This is why I make individual measures for each powder and weight.



Here the 100 grain measure for Goex 2F held 109 grains of Swiss 2F.


Notice I used Triple 7 2F on the bottom right.  The 80 grain Goex 2F measure held 64.5 grains of Triple 7 2F. Just need about 5 grains of black powder booster and black powder in the pan.  Works entirely reliably.  Please don't anyone go off ranting and raving about Triple 7.

Herb

Offline alacran

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Re: Powder Comparisons, Goex, Olde Enynsford and Swiss
« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2018, 04:07:20 PM »
Any one that knows me will tell you that I am no mathematician. But all those groups fall within statistical probability, in regards to different powders and loads. One group with each load really doesn't prove much.
Ten groups of each load would be more meaningful. IMHO.
A man's rights rest in three boxes: the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.  Frederick Douglass

Offline Herb

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Re: Powder Comparisons, Goex, Olde Enynsford and Swiss
« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2018, 05:54:29 PM »
I believe you.  Statistical probability of what?  So what do you want to prove?  You do it and report back.
Herb

Offline shifty

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Re: Powder Comparisons, Goex, Olde Enynsford and Swiss
« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2018, 06:05:37 PM »
   Herb very good post thanks.
   
         Herb in your choice of powders lets say you could only buy one brand which would it be for 50-58 cal rifles?  I also have a copy of the Kit Carson Hawken i made and i love it 58cal. Although my favorite for hunting is my take on a Leman i made in 54 cal.

Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: Powder Comparisons, Goex, Olde Enynsford and Swiss
« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2018, 06:08:51 PM »
Herb........The 3F Swiss you have in the metal can is slower than the latest Swiss. Have you tried the latest Swiss?

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Powder Comparisons, Goex, Olde Enynsford and Swiss
« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2018, 06:43:30 PM »
When I work up loads to test for small groups, accuracy , etc. I like to shoot 10 shot groups if I can. I feel that I get a better represenative  group with more shots. It takes more time and shooting but I like to shoot any way.

Offline Herb

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Re: Powder Comparisons, Goex, Olde Enynsford and Swiss
« Reply #9 on: December 25, 2018, 12:11:00 AM »
Shifty, I do buy and use Olde Eynsford, either 2F or 1 1/2F, not much difference, though I like 1 1/2F better.  Goex is good, but OE gives more velocity.  Swiss is also very good, but even if it gave superior accuracy, I don't need that.   I don't do chunk shooting or shooting for X's, just string cutting at 100 yards....  All the powders have to be cleaned, so powder fouling is of no concern.  In my test shooting I seat the ball with a damp patch on the jag, thus wiping the bore as the ball is seated.  No other wiping, though sometimes I clean the bore between powders, such as Goex or OE and Swiss.  The first shot or two with the clean bore is usually lower in velocity and sometimes not in the group that follows, but that is shown on my targets both in the velocities and ball impact on the target.

OldMtnMan- you mean there is variation in Swiss powder?  No, I don't have it.  I only use it in comparison testing.  These tests were not for accuracy, just to compare  powders of equal charge weights to see what velocity they gave.  If I wanted to refine a load for accuracy, I'd go on from there.  But many of these loads would be great for hunting.  In a .54 I have shot 80, 100, 110 and 120 grains of 2F loads for deer, elk and antelope hunting.  The velocity allows one to use ballistic programs, such as Hornady's, to calculate bullet drop with various sighting distances at reasonable hunting ranges.
Herb

Offline Herb

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Re: Powder Comparisons, Goex, Olde Enynsford and Swiss
« Reply #10 on: December 25, 2018, 01:41:38 AM »
Some more tests.  This is a .54 Hawken I built for Everett, a Ute Indian.  It has probably killed several elk by now.  Everett is building his own Hawkens now, and very well, too.


Another .54 GRRW barreled Kit Carson Hawken copy I gave my nephew.  Top left- 80 grains weight/measure of Goex 2F, 1556 fps.  Center- same measure but O.E. 2F, gave 100 fps more.  Top right, 100 w/m O.E. 1 1/2F, 1790 fps.  Bottom left, 55 Goex 2F w/m BUT Pyrodex RS, two patches blew, 1387 fps.  Center, 70 grains Goex w/m BUT Pyrodex RS, 1521 fps.  Bottom left, 80 grains w/m Goex 2F BUT Pyrodex RS, 1625 fps.  Again, please don't discuss the demerits of Pyrodex- that has been done elsewhere.


The same rifle.  Top left- 80 w/m Goex 2F, 1560 fps/40 spread.  Center- same measure BUT Triple 7 2F, 1781/38 fps, .013 natural canvas patches blew.  A heavier patch or over powder wad is needed.  Top right- 100 w/m O.E. 1 1/2F, patches good, 1765/39 fps.  Bottom left, 100 w/m O.E. 1 1/2F, 1784/17 fps.  Center, 100 w/m Swiss 2F, 1888/66 fps, gritty breech.  Right target, 100 w/m Swiss 1 1/2F, 1724/120 fps.  I think you can left click on these pictures and the original sharp image comes up. 


Herb

Offline Herb

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Re: Powder Comparisons, Goex, Olde Enynsford and Swiss
« Reply #11 on: December 25, 2018, 07:13:23 AM »
Here are targets I shot with an English Sporting Rifle I built with a 32" Rice Jaeger .54 barrel, for comparative velocity and of course accuracy.  You can see why I don't care much for Olde Eynsford 3 f.



This compares Goex 2F with O.E 2F, top right, 80 grains each.

80 and 100 grains of O.E. 1 1/2F

On the top right, 80 grains of O.E. 3F.

Herb

Offline alacran

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Re: Powder Comparisons, Goex, Olde Enynsford and Swiss
« Reply #12 on: December 25, 2018, 04:26:46 PM »
Herb I didnt mean to rattle your feathers, and did not mean any disrespect. To the contrary I always look forward your posts, and I admire your Hawkens.
My point is if you shoot one group with one type of powder and then another group with another powder in the same gun. All that really tells is that you shot better in one group than you did the other.  If you get a flier in one group. Is it the powder or the shooter. An average of multiple groups compared to another set of multiple groups will tell better whether it is the change of powder or the shooter.
With MLs being what they are. It takes a long time to load go back to the bench re acquire sights and target.  There are light changes, wind changes not to mention fatigue. Actually all your groups are pretty good.
A man's rights rest in three boxes: the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.  Frederick Douglass

Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: Powder Comparisons, Goex, Olde Enynsford and Swiss
« Reply #13 on: December 25, 2018, 06:05:31 PM »
Herb..........No, I was talking about velocity. The newer Swiss should be faster than the older Swiss. According to Swiss anyway.

Offline Herb

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Re: Powder Comparisons, Goex, Olde Enynsford and Swiss
« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2018, 08:50:25 PM »
Hi, Alacran.  Thanks for your comments.  I was a bit abrupt, didn't notice your point.  But then, I ain't as smart as I am handsome.  But- GASP- what if I am....  I have shot many thousands of groups from bench rest, both center fire rifles and many black powder rifles.  I never call a shot out when I shoot from rest.  What, never?  No, never.  What, never?  Well, hardly ever.  (From Gilbert and Sullivan).  So when there is a shot out of the group, I think it is the load.  But it could be my aiming, even if I do not realize it.  It has to be very exact to shoot bullets through the same hole at 50 and 100 yards.  It could be my holding, how I take up recoil, but I never think it to be.  And if it is, shooting more groups would repeat the error.  If it is the load, then the same is true.  So three or four or five shots is a sample, and they tell me what I want to know.  I like four shots, but some times I do foulers before them.  I think it is more likely to shoot a big group with accumulated errors than to shoot a tight one.  Anyone else who would like to comment on my results, such as how uniform Swiss powder is, feel free to do so.
Herb

Offline Herb

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Re: Powder Comparisons, Goex, Olde Enynsford and Swiss
« Reply #15 on: December 26, 2018, 09:12:43 PM »
Up to .58 caliber now.  These targets are with 120 grains of Goex 2F but .562 balls and .020 linen on the left and .570 and .020 Ox Yoke on the right.  These are nominal thicknesses, the compressed thickness is quite a bit smaller.  I had yet to learn this.

This is 100 grains of Swiss 3f.  Somewhere in my .58 testing of Swiss powder I found fouling about a foot back from the muzzle for about six inches.  Probably can't find that in my records right away.

Herb

Offline redheart

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Re: Powder Comparisons, Goex, Olde Enynsford and Swiss
« Reply #16 on: December 27, 2018, 01:40:21 AM »
Herb, :)

I see an interesting variety of targets. You seem to do very well with the black chevron target. Is it your favorite?
I only ask because my eyes aren't the greatest and I might like to try out the ones you like best.
Thanks for all of the great info!
« Last Edit: December 27, 2018, 01:48:31 AM by redheart »

Offline Herb

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Re: Powder Comparisons, Goex, Olde Enynsford and Swiss
« Reply #17 on: December 27, 2018, 02:09:28 AM »
Yes, I find the chevron the easiest to hold center on.  I aim at the bottom, hoping to have the group form in the chevron where the shots are easiest to see and record.  I ran out of black spray paint and went to the reddish color, which makes a prettier picture.
Herb

Offline Herb

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Re: Powder Comparisons, Goex, Olde Enynsford and Swiss
« Reply #18 on: December 27, 2018, 02:24:38 AM »
And here is a Don Stith .54 Hawken fullstock with a solid (non-hooked) breech plug I put together for a guy in Alaska who couldn't finish it.


Herb

Offline Herb

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Re: Powder Comparisons, Goex, Olde Enynsford and Swiss
« Reply #19 on: December 27, 2018, 02:32:19 AM »
My .58 fullstock flint Hawken.  Here the targets were just a blank sheet of paper.  Just hold center.

Herb

Offline Herb

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Re: Powder Comparisons, Goex, Olde Enynsford and Swiss
« Reply #20 on: December 27, 2018, 02:49:19 AM »
This compares 100 grains w/m of Olde Eynsford 2f, 1 1/2f and 3f at 100 yards.  The velocities were 1682/53, 1599/80 and 1602/88.  I had to change patches on the second target.   If you left click on the picture, the original comes up with a box that says "load full resolution".  Click on that and you can read the targets.

Herb

Offline Herb

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Re: Powder Comparisons, Goex, Olde Enynsford and Swiss
« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2018, 07:45:14 AM »
Here is a Green River Rifle Works .54 Leman barrel that went through a fire. I lapped the bore, fitted a new stock and made it into a flintlock.  This was me on an elk hunt.  I think I was using about 110 grains of Swiss 2f.

I was unable to lap the rusted pits out of the bore so sent it to Bobby Hoyt and he rebored it to .58.  Great job.  This is the only good group I ever shot with O.E. 3f.

Notice that O.E. 3f and O.E. 1 1/2f again give nearly the same velocity.

Here is Alliant Black MZ.  I liked this powder.  Please don't cuss this powder here, nor Triple 7, next target.

The ABMZ and Triple 7 loads were just to see how they performed.  The charge could be adjusted to give good accuracy, but it had no reason to do that.

Herb

Offline Herb

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Re: Powder Comparisons, Goex, Olde Enynsford and Swiss
« Reply #22 on: December 27, 2018, 09:56:18 PM »
This is a .58 flint halfstock "Hawken" I built for a mule deer hunt.  No velocity on these targets, but 90 grains W/M of Goex 2F gave 1529/42 and 100 grains of W/M O.E. 1 1/2f gave 1611/62 for five shots.

This is 110 grains of Goex 2f at 100 yards.

Herb