Author Topic: Shooting original Hawken rifle (Read 10853 times)

shootrj2003 · « **on:** February 16, 2019, 08:15:25 AM »

Any record of anybody shooting an original Hawken and the results?if I owned one I would.!

Frank · « **Reply #1 on:** February 16, 2019, 02:31:36 PM »

Yep. John Baird.

Shovelbuck · « **Reply #2 on:** February 16, 2019, 05:09:25 PM »

A friend here locally had one and I was fortunate enough to shoot it. This was back in the 70's. He sold it to another guy that shot a buffalo with it.

Mike Brooks · « **Reply #3 on:** February 16, 2019, 05:14:13 PM »

I'm not entirely sure why such great value is placed on Hawken rifles anyway. I think the Dimmicks and other St. Louis makers are just as good. I guess I was just thought their work was that much better to where they should demand a premium. Is it all the hype associated with Baird's writings?

Sharpsman · « **Reply #4 on:** February 16, 2019, 05:29:52 PM »

Quote from: Mike Brooks on February 16, 2019, 05:14:13 PM

I'm not entirely sure why such great value is placed on Hawken rifles anyway. I think the Dimmicks and other St. Louis makers are just as good. I guess I was just thought their work was that much better to where they should demand a premium. Is it all the hype associated with Baird's writings?

Dimick Caplock Rifle by Sharps Man, on Flickr

OldMtnMan · « **Reply #5 on:** February 16, 2019, 05:35:37 PM »

Shooting an original Hawken wouldn't be any different than shooting a good replica.

Although, i'd love to shoot an original. Not ever going to happen.

ron w · « **Reply #6 on:** February 16, 2019, 06:53:07 PM »

I see no novelty in shooting a good replica.....it's just shooting another decently made gun.....if any exists,...the novelty is in whether I built it, or some else did. the thrill of shooting an original is in the fact that you are holding something made so many years ago and it is still around in good enough condition to be shot.

Dphariss · « **Reply #7 on:** February 16, 2019, 08:22:31 PM »

Quote from: Sharpsman on February 16, 2019, 05:29:52 PM

Quote from: Mike Brooks on February 16, 2019, 05:14:13 PM
I'm not entirely sure why such great value is placed on Hawken rifles anyway. I think the Dimmicks and other St. Louis makers are just as good. I guess I was just thought their work was that much better to where they should demand a premium. Is it all the hype associated with Baird's writings?

Dimick Caplock Rifle by Sharps Man, on Flickr

John Baird just brought them to the fore front in the late 1960s. Had they not already had a reputation he probably would have written on something else. He did not get in everything he could have and could have easily expanded the original book by the time he did 15 years in the Hawken Lode but some one broke into his vehicle about 1969 and stole all his research. Which surely got dumped in some ditch or river. It kinda discouraged him. This happened in Bloomington, IL while visiting a friend.
The Hawken Shop was one of the first and they set the standard for the "Plains Rifle by the mid-1830s if not before. They actually were making Rocky Mountain fur trade era rifles. Rifles that went to the Rendezvous and they obviously produced a very good rifle. I would also point out that most of what you see are Gold Rush, Oregon Trail, Army scout era rifles. They made rifles for Ashley. The Modena Rifle with its 1833 date on the cheek inlay is obviously an 1840s rifle. Not an 1933 J&S. See the Petersen Rifle and the J&S rifle at the Montana Historical Society in Helena and the Atchinson rifle for reference. These three rifles could make a chapter on their own.
So there is a reason the Hawken rifle got its reputation. The fully evolved Hawken of the early 1840s is still one of the best ML hunting rifles for durability and effectiveness. Its an Americanization of the English rifles of the time from about 1800 to 1850.
I was lucky enough to get to shoot one shot from an original Hawken, but it was quite some time ago and one shot is really meaningless other than to say I did...

Would also point out that a lot, most, of the "reproduction" Hawkens are not.

Dan

Dphariss · « **Reply #8 on:** February 16, 2019, 08:47:17 PM »

Quote from: ron w on February 16, 2019, 06:53:07 PM

I see no novelty in shooting a good replica.....it's just shooting another decently made gun.....if any exists,...the novelty is in whether I built it, or some else did. the thrill of shooting an original is in the fact that you are holding something made so many years ago and it is still around in good enough condition to be shot.

Shooting a copy, a GOOD one, of a rifle like the Petersen or other early J&S Hawken or even a late S. Hawken gives insights that we will not get from shooting a T/C "Hawken" or even a Browning Mtn Rifle. Just as making rod pipes and forend caps rather than buying them ready made gives insights.
A friend of mine has a rifle, a copy of an original done many years back by a very competent maker, that is stocked very poorly for offhand shooting but is perfect for a chunk or plank rest match where its design is appreciated. Look at the Hudson fowlers. When we realize they were meant to be shot prone from the shore or boat we see the stock design in a different light. So one cannot shoot a T/C "Hawken" and think one understands the Hawken rifles made in the 1830s nor can one shoot an English fowler and then dare to understand the Hudson fowler's design. In this last case they were designed for very different uses.

Dan

OldMtnMan · « **Reply #9 on:** February 16, 2019, 10:10:53 PM »

Dan......... A TC or Browning aren't good replicas. The TC is a joke and the Browning was never supposed to be a Hawken. More of a plains rifle.

Some replicas are good though. Don Stith as an example. There are others.

Daryl · « **Reply #10 on:** February 16, 2019, 11:15:21 PM »

Well, I'll tell you, it was an absolute thrill to shoot this rifle, made in 1853!

patrice skyfall

It is fun shooting mine, the 14 bore on the left. It was thrilling to shoot the J. Lang 16 bore rifle.

So yeah - it would be quite thrilling to shoot an original .53 or .54 J&S or S. Hawken rifle.

OldMtnMan · « **Reply #11 on:** February 16, 2019, 11:34:02 PM »

You do the same thing with your forefinger as I do. Point it towards the target.

Herb · « **Reply #12 on:** February 17, 2019, 07:31:49 AM »

When Doc White had the Jim Bridger Hawken at the Green River Rifle Works in 1975, he took it the the Fort Bridger Rendezvous and shot it, I don't know how much. It is about a .53 caliber. Another time it was taken out of the museum at Helena by the curator to a gun show, but sent back to Helena with two other guys. They said they'd take it back on the condition that they could shoot it. He probably thought they were kidding, they weren't. They stopped in a gunshop and got a few balls, .535's were all the guy had, and shot it 15 or 20 times. They wrote this up in Muzzleloader Magazine, I think it was, and I have that copy here somewhere. Title of the story was "The Day Old Gabe Smiled" if I remember right. How they got those .535 balls down that bore, must have taken some ramrodding, but they didn't mention that. Doc White also shot some original Hawkens when he was in Alaska.

Roger B · « **Reply #13 on:** February 18, 2019, 06:13:31 AM »

Ruxton made the Hawken rifle & Green River knives the equipment of every trapper, though he was a good 30 years too late to know what early trappers really used. The fact is that Hawken rifles weren't really any better than many other makes, but the Hawken brothers were closely associated with the fur trade. Their shop was just across an alley from AFC headquarters & many of the luminaries of the day bought Hawken rifles. Often they were the owner's last rifle.
The fact remains that they were very good late percussion guns. I've shouldered one of Ruxton's rifles and felt like a piece of history. How incredible would it have been to actually fire the rifle that Ruxton used in his travels from Mexico to colorado? I guess the same goes for any other rifle of the age. The best we can do though, is shoot a good replica.
Roger B.

Daryl · « **Reply #14 on:** February 18, 2019, 10:30:15 PM »

Quote from: OldMtnMan on February 16, 2019, 11:34:02 PM

You do the same thing with your forefinger as I do. Point it towards the target.

Seems to reduce the side to side movement, leaving mostly & ONLY vertical to contend with. Helps for offhand shooting - or at least used to - LOL I seem to get a

lot of horizontal movement now - didn't use to.

OldMtnMan · « **Reply #15 on:** February 18, 2019, 10:33:42 PM »

I wave around more now too. I just time it when the sights pass over the target and let it rip!

mountainman70 · « **Reply #16 on:** February 18, 2019, 11:27:49 PM »

Yep,me too. Once the sights get Close'nuff, boom!!! Get what I aim at most the time. Rest is good for laffs. Dave

Heck, I was plum honored to be able to just hold a Hawken Mtn rifle a couple times. It is an infectious thing.

OldMtnMan · « **Reply #17 on:** February 19, 2019, 12:37:03 AM »

I'd be happy to hold a real Hawken too.

Bob Roller · « **Reply #18 on:** February 19, 2019, 03:21:27 PM »

Quote from: Mike Brooks on February 16, 2019, 05:14:13 PM

I'm not entirely sure why such great value is placed on Hawken rifles anyway. I think the Dimmicks and other St. Louis makers are just as good. I guess I was just thought their work was that much better to where they should demand a premium. Is it all the hype associated with Baird's writings?

Mike,the Hawken is like a Duesenberg car.One formerly owned by actor Gary Cooper sold
for $22 million.A top of the line Packard was a better car and could be serviced all over the
world as a new car.Wealthy collectors have driven prices up to insanity on all major classic
cars and the Hawken was profiled in the 1960's and caught on.There were any number of
rifles from the American Northeastern makers that were far better quality and would shoot
rings around a Hawken.Baird's book DID promote these guns but there were other St.Louis
guns that were as good and the Dimmick was one of them.Demand drives the price and
the Hawken IS in demand as a replica and there are makers that do nothing else.
Bob Roller

MuskratMike · « **Reply #19 on:** February 20, 2019, 01:32:32 AM »

Then why did the Hawken brothers command double the price for their rifles in the 1820's to 1840's and have more business than they could handle? I do believe they made as fine of a "mountain" rifle as anybody in St. Louis or anywhere else. Sort of like why a pre-64 model 70 is a better rifle than a Savage of the same era. Same style of rifle, same caliber, same action but one was gust made to finer tolerances and better fit and function. I am not a Hawken fan anymore and shoot mostly 1750-1820 flintlocks now but still appreciate fine work.

j. pease · « **Reply #20 on:** February 20, 2019, 04:10:02 AM »

I know it is not a Hawken but I have A J P Gemmerthat came from John Baird, used to shoot in Hawken shoot at Friendship and won in early '70s. It was only .45 but shoot well.. Still have and haven't shot it in several years. I am sure a Hawken mountain rifle would soot just as well.

Mike from OK · « **Reply #21 on:** February 22, 2019, 06:54:29 AM »

Been a while since I visited the place, but the JM Davis Gun Museum in Claremore, OK had at least one Hawken rifle. Possibly more than one.

I'm certain they have at least one. And if I remember correctly it's a full stock. Might be time for a little road trip to refresh my memory.

Pretty cool to be inches away from something like that.

Mike

crankshaft · « **Reply #22 on:** February 22, 2019, 06:58:46 AM »

The cool thing about that one is it is well used, the finish is worn thru at the wrist and forearm where it rested over the saddle.

Huntschool · « **Reply #23 on:** February 22, 2019, 08:10:27 AM »

Quote from: j. pease on February 20, 2019, 04:10:02 AM

I know it is not a Hawken but I have A J P Gemmerthat came from John Baird, used to shoot in Hawken shoot at Friendship and won in early '70s. It was only .45 but shoot well.. Still have and haven't shot it in several years. I am sure a Hawken mountain rifle would soot just as well.

Nothing wrong with a Gemmer gun. Their conversions of Spencer's and Sharps are really something to behold. Ed Webber, Big Timber, MT built one of the sweetest Gemmer Sharps I have ever seen.

alacran · « **Reply #24 on:** February 22, 2019, 03:59:12 PM »

Quote from: Mike from OK on February 22, 2019, 06:54:29 AM

Been a while since I visited the place, but the JM Davis Gun Museum in Claremore, OK had at least one Hawken rifle. Possibly more than one.

I'm certain they have at least one. And if I remember correctly it's a full stock. Might be time for a little road trip to refresh my memory.

Pretty cool to be inches away from something like that.

Mike
Haven't been there for a while myself. Last time I was there the only Hawken on display was a brass mounted squirrel rifle.

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Author Topic: Shooting original Hawken rifle (Read 10853 times)

ron w