Author Topic: Can you "handy-cap" a bp competition  (Read 4140 times)

Offline Molly

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Can you "handy-cap" a bp competition
« on: March 25, 2019, 04:04:20 AM »
I am a part of a very diverse group of bp shooters.  Ages range from probably 78 down to late 30's.  Several gals who, like myself, are not really that good.  A couple of the guys are really great shots.  Several have shot in a variety of competitions and one still does.  I think we all like to "compete" but most of us are just not up to the lever of the 3 or 4 at the top.  So the question is what is a good way, fair and reasonable, to build into a simple competition some sort of handy cap so that any one might win. (Other than off hand vs bench and just setting targets at various distances.)

We are planning an "Apple Pie" shoot for April.  Got a source for home made deep dish apple pie with lattice crust.  That will be the prize....unless you are one of the several who have a problem with "sugar".  (If one of them win they get a large container of cottage cheese! :))

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Can you "handy-cap" a bp competition
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2019, 05:18:24 AM »
Would a class system work for you, something like the NMLRA uses.

Offline snapper

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Re: Can you "handy-cap" a bp competition
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2019, 05:41:32 AM »
Consider having shoot where there is no skill involved, except for hitting the target.

The target is posted, there is a mark on the backside of the target that no one knows where it is.  The closest shot to the mark wins.

I have done this several times at my annual event.  Only skill is hitting the target, the rest is luck.

Fleener
My taste are simple:  I am easily satisfied with the best.  Winston Churchill

Offline Ky-Flinter

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Re: Can you "handy-cap" a bp competition
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2019, 06:19:49 AM »
Molly,

Can you handicap a BP competition? Yes.  Simple? Not so much.

Several years ago I was a member of a ML club that held a monthly shoot that used a handicap system.  The match program was 4 targets, the NMLRA small bull and large bull at 25 yards, and the same 2 targets at 50 yards, 5 shots on each target, for a total possible 200 points.  Cash from a portion of the entry fees was paid out based on handicap scores.  In addition, 1 ounce .999 silver coins were awarded for the high scratch (non-handicap) and high handicap scores. When you won silver, you couldn't win silver again for 6 months.

At a shooter's first match, their handicap was calculated using the following formula.
200 possible points minus  the shooter's actual 4 target score multiplied by 80%.
If my scores on the 4 targets totaled 150 points, my handicap would be 40.
200 - 150 = 50 x .80 = 40  This amount would be added to my scratch score at the next monthly shoot.

We kept a record book and averaged each shooter's scores for the previous 6 matches they attended.  This cut down the possibility of sand-bagging.

-Ron
Ron Winfield

Life is too short to hunt with an ugly gun. -Nate McKenzie

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Can you "handy-cap" a bp competition
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2019, 01:01:58 PM »
Losing a rifle match isn't a big deal, I did it most of my life, never needed a leg up.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Molly

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Re: Can you "handy-cap" a bp competition
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2019, 01:24:13 PM »
Three GREAT suggestions offering real ideas on "how to".  One not so much so.

Thanks!  Look forward to other ideas.


Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Can you "handy-cap" a bp competition
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2019, 01:41:15 PM »
Three GREAT suggestions offering real ideas on "how to".  One not so much so.

Thanks!  Look forward to other ideas.
Mine was one of the GREAT suggestions....right? I should write a book on how to loose a rifle match. Might become a best seller. ;D
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline T*O*F

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Re: Can you "handy-cap" a bp competition
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2019, 03:09:30 PM »
We used to award 3 prizes per shoot.
1.  All the guys that always shot the best would compete for top score.  Sometimes if they didn't show for a match, the guys who were just a couple of points away from the top had an opportunity to win.  3 silver dollars.
2.  All shooters scores were added and an average taken.  Shooter closest to that number....2 silver dollars.
3.  Low score....1 silver dollar.

Gave everyone a chance to win something...Ö.until the price of a silver dollar went to $26 each and grossly exceeded the entry fees.
Dave Kanger

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Offline bob in the woods

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Re: Can you "handy-cap" a bp competition
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2019, 03:30:07 PM »
We take all the scores and divide them into three classes. Top 3rd, middle 3rd and lower 3rd.  1st , 2nd and 3rd prizes are awarded to each class.   Everyone tries to do their best, because you never know where those dividing lines are going to be.

Offline Fyrstyk

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Re: Can you "handy-cap" a bp competition
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2019, 03:36:58 PM »
We try to even the playing field by shooting at the back sides of playing cards at 35 yards.  Only hits fully within the card count.  shooter shoots at 3 different cards.  The closest to 21 is the winner.  Played just like black jack.  You still have to hit the card, but luck comes into play for score.

Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: Can you "handy-cap" a bp competition
« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2019, 04:08:09 PM »
How about if the pie goes to 3rd place score instead of the top score. Nobody knows what the other scores are. So, the top shooters would have to guess what 3rd place score would be and shoot that score.

Everybody would have a chance to win. You could pick any place as winner 5th, 7th etc.

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Can you "handy-cap" a bp competition
« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2019, 04:37:00 PM »
I in no way want to offend anybody, but all of this sounds like a participation trophy scenario. All kidding aside, when I used to shoot at F-ship and everywhere else when I was at the top of my game you either ran with the big dogs or you stayed on the porch.
 Now, since I'm far from "the top of my game" I still shoot and I'm very used to getting beat. It's not a big deal, you get used to it, somebody is always going to loose. The only winner is the guy/gal at the top, everyone else is an also ran. Part of life.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Carney Pace

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Re: Can you "handy-cap" a bp competition
« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2019, 04:41:47 PM »
I put on a ,22 RF shoot and you bring a prize if you want a prize.  Shooters get bragging rights only prizes are awarded by the prize bringers getting there name pulled out of a hat.  The field of fire covers over 200 yds. with distances ranging from 10 yds. to over 135 yds.  Targets will move or make noise and  you cannot get by with a box of ammo.
 Only fair way to get new shooters . Being 78 I have found I cannot  shoot with the younger shooters.

Another way would be age groups. Under 50, under 70, and above 70.  Women and men compete  together per age group.

Carney

Offline alacran

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Re: Can you "handy-cap" a bp competition
« Reply #13 on: March 25, 2019, 05:03:44 PM »
The more shooters you have the easier it is to classify people . The less people you have, the harder it is. Most of the clubs I have shot at, usually have a men's, women's and juniors category. At our state shoot we classify shooters by known ability, as well as gender and age.
A man's rights rest in three boxes: the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.  Frederick Douglass

Offline Gun_Nut_73

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Re: Can you "handy-cap" a bp competition
« Reply #14 on: March 25, 2019, 09:28:13 PM »
Our club has blanket shoots every few months.  Everyone brings something worth a pre-set amount.  High score gets first pick, second place gets next pick, etc.  Everyone wins.

Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: Can you "handy-cap" a bp competition
« Reply #15 on: March 25, 2019, 10:36:42 PM »
I figured i'd get ragged on but I agree with Mike. The best shooter should win and if you can't beat him work harder at becoming a better shot.

Shooting competition shouldn't be up to luck. Putting shooters in age groups is ok though.

Offline snapper

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Re: Can you "handy-cap" a bp competition
« Reply #16 on: March 25, 2019, 10:50:30 PM »
The shoots I shoot in over half of the shooters have never won an event and most likely never will.  There is a small group that might win if the stars align just right.  Then there is a fairly good sized group, perhaps 30% that could win at any given day, just depending.

Nothing wrong with having a special shoot that can be fun and produce a winner that might not normally win.  We need those to compete that do it because they enjoy competing, even if they dont have a chance to win.

No, I am most certainly not one that thinks we all need participation ribbons.

When I was coaching youth trap shooting, I first thought everyone was there to win first place.  I was placing my values onto them.

I started asking each kid privately, what their expectations were.  I was surprised to learn that around half the kids had no expectations of winning, but were simply looking for a good experience, to enjoy themselves and spend time with their friends.

Fleener

My taste are simple:  I am easily satisfied with the best.  Winston Churchill

Offline kudu

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Re: Can you "handy-cap" a bp competition
« Reply #17 on: March 25, 2019, 11:14:18 PM »
Yes you can if its a league: I wrote this for a Archery league.


Offline sydney

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Re: Can you "handy-cap" a bp competition
« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2019, 11:39:41 PM »
Hi I agree with Molly--It s old school thinking to say they should just try harder
    Some don t have the skills needed and might never have them
    This thinking does not help as we need all the new shooters we can get
    There are lots of class systems as in trap shooting to encourage
     new shooters to enter the shooting sports
    If the old shooter did n t win one Sun morning-too bad
       Sydney

Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: Can you "handy-cap" a bp competition
« Reply #19 on: March 26, 2019, 12:51:38 AM »
Yes, Mike and I are old school. What else can an old @$#% be?

The only shoots that ever mattered to me were when I was making a living trap shooting. My income depended on it.

Everything else is for fun but winning is also fun.

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Re: Can you "handy-cap" a bp competition
« Reply #20 on: March 26, 2019, 12:53:15 AM »
Back in the day when I could play golf, I belonged to a league and we had teams. I would play the #3 or #4 guy every week. The "worse" scoring guy on the team was a #5. Handicap's were calculated on a 3 week moving average.

I would think that handicapping a shooters score would not only be fair, but provide everyone a level playing field. If the top shooter doesn't like it, he can take his roundball and go home.

Life is short. Don't sweat the small stuff. And BTW.....99.9% of it is small stuff.

FWIW

Offline Molly

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Re: Can you "handy-cap" a bp competition
« Reply #21 on: March 26, 2019, 03:56:28 AM »
This is my experience and I'm not saying it will be true for every group BUT...

Three or four of our group are absolutely excellent.  Hit a flea on an elephants butt at 500 yards.  Two or three are absolutely awful.  Cannot hit the elephant at 25 yards.

And then there are 10 or 12 who are not good shots but usually come out and have a good time.  Every "competition" we have is won by the same people.  We all still have fun but why "compete" if you already know the outcome? Fact is most of our events are NOT competitions as such.  We just get together and everyone does their target at their distance.  We cheer when someone does good and laugh when they don't.

People come out to have a good time.  I have observed some "NMLRA" sanctioned events.  DRY as $#*!.  No one spoke or even smiled.  WAY too serious for me.  Just trying to keep in "fun" and encourage people to come out and shoot.  But the main point is that I want that pie!

Offline crankshaft

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Re: Can you "handy-cap" a bp competition
« Reply #22 on: March 26, 2019, 05:59:05 AM »
 The good shooters should not be penalized.  But,  what about

Match play, 2 best head to head, etc.

Teams...good shooters paired with  not so good shooters.

There are a number of guys who no longer shoot because the same guys always win, and they never liked them much to begin with.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2019, 04:03:49 PM by crankshaft »

Offline Molly

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Re: Can you "handy-cap" a bp competition
« Reply #23 on: March 26, 2019, 03:13:26 PM »
I hope we never get to the point where members don't like one or another for any reason and thus fail to show up.  We'll simple not have any group competitions if it starts going in that direction.  Our event is not for a couple of weeks so IF we have a competition for the pie I have some time to figure it out.  THANKS to all for the suggestions.

Offline stikshooter

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Re: Can you "handy-cap" a bp competition
« Reply #24 on: March 26, 2019, 03:32:40 PM »
Snappers idea (luck shoot is a good one) good shooters shoot more and then some more, works for everyone that does /Ed