My Take On Screw Tip Spout W/Repair/Update One Last Time 18 May '19

[Tim Crosby]

  Still not sure how that band got on that horn, I think the high heat would have scorched the horn, left the band loose, made it brittle and subject to breaking off. My thinking is that if it was Pewter it could have been poured on the collar and then turned, could have been after the crack developed of when it was new, never know, just an idea.
 I made the tip up from Two pieces of horn, the collar threaded through 5/8-11. Turned a channel in the collar, made up a dam and poured the Pewter (Somehow I managed to loose those Pix) I darkened it up with some Bluing and Brass black, it will darken more with age.
 First couple Pix show it as poured and rough turned on the lathe. The Third is as turned before sanding and coloring. Then a couple of different views followed by the finished piece. Then on a Horn, this is not the horn it will end up on, I have other plans for this horn. I heated it and colored it with Dark Brown leather dye followed by Brown shoe polish.

  Tim C.

 Link to original post:

  http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=54390.0

[skillman]

Well done Tim. I think it would be a simple task to see if the one shown by Shelby was steel. I put on a demo at our West Coast Horn and Accoutrements Fair on pouring pewter on horn tips. I like how you did this tip.

Steve

[Tanselman]

You guys are all wet on this one. The ring is iron as stated before...but you made a great looking tip!  Shelby Gallien

[Nordnecker]

Well, Tim, even though you might be barking up the wrong tree, I really like what you did.

[Tim Crosby]

  Thanks, I would really like to figure out how that was done.

    Tim

[Clark Badgett]

The iron band is either a press fit or shrunk on

[msellers]

Could one fit the iron band shrink fitting like you would an iron tire on a wagon wheel? Coat the horn piece in something that would cook away without scorching the horn, then push the red hot iron band on and cool instantly with pouring water over it.

Just a different thought that might pan out.
Mike

[Tanselman]

My guess on mounting the iron band is that the lower section of the spout originally had a bead ring where the band now sits. It was shaved down to have flat sides with a slight taper toward the top, leaving its bottom diameter slightly larger (perhaps about the same as the ring above)...to force the cracked segment together as the ring was seated all the way down. The bead just above it, which appears to be slightly larger than the iron ring and the crux of the problem, has several small flat spots on its surface. They could be dings, but perhaps they were "ironed" into the bead when the ring was forced over it. I'm betting the lower spout segment was heated in oil/lard to slightly soften its surface and make it slippery, then the ring was simply forced down over it...perhaps pushed evenly with another ring or tube to avoid excessive pressure on one side or the other...or perhaps "walked" down. I don't believe there is really much difference between the diameter of the "troublesome" bead above and the inside diameter of the iron ring itself. The only important area of diameter difference would be the bottom of the tapered area where the was ring finally forced/seated, to hold that section of the spout tightly together. There are no signs of burning or scorching from a hot ring...of course, it's possible such discoloration could have worn off. Ah, the little mysteries of these neat old horns! Shelby Gallien

[Clark Badgett]

You really don't have to use a lot of heat to expand iron. We use a bearing warmer at work to heat up bearings for heat shrink, and it doesn't get much over 300 degrees. Could the facetted ring be a series of small horn wedges that were glued in and then trimmed back?

[Tim Crosby]

 Ok, I had to try heating a piece and pressing it on a horn tip. All I had was a 5/8" fender washer. So I turned a tip down to where it almost fit, left a space for it to fit over and cut a channel for it to fit into the same size as the inside diameter of the washer. Started heating the washer and tried to press it on a couple times all the time increasing the temp, all eyeball. When it finally went on It was immediately dropped in a bucket of water.
 It looks it burnt its way on, did not tighten up, it was loose and with a little effort it pulled back off.
Not sure what it proves, if anything other than the fact that heated the band can burn it way into place but is not tight. I realize this is on a tip not a collar but I think heat would give the same result no matter which.
 I guess my next try will be making a collar and trying to press the washer on to it by heating the collar.

   Tim

[Dennis Glazener]

Tim
Not sure a horn maker of the period would have the equipment to do thus but I once bushed a tumbler shaft hole by slightly warming the plate (hole) with a soldering iron (large) and placing bushing in deep freeze until cold.. Guess it held ok because I never had any problems with it coming loose. Maybe freezing the horn and slightly warming the ring would work?
Dennis

[Tim Crosby]

Tim
Not sure a horn maker of the period would have the equipment to do thus but I once bushed a tumbler shaft hole by slightly warming the plate (hole) with a soldering iron (large) and placing bushing in deep freeze until cold.. Guess it held ok because I never had any problems with it coming loose. Maybe freezing the horn and slightly warming the ring would work?
Dennis

 I thought about that, I have put gears and bearing in a freezer to get them to fit in a the housing on a rear end. Didn't think about putting the horn in there to shrink it.

 Tim 

[BOB HILL]

Tim, you may get different results with a thicker piece of iron not heated enough to burn the horn.
Bob

[Tim Crosby]

Tim, you may get different results with a thicker piece of iron not heated enough to burn the horn.
Bob

As I heated this one I tried it as I heated it, wouldn't even start down until it burnt/melted the horn.
I may try a thicker piece but first I'm gonna try making a collar, heating it an pressing a band on.

 Tim

[Robert Wolfe]

What about softening the horn (heat or?) and then pressing on the iron band? Would the horn be plastic enough to deform and allow the iron ring on but then "bounce" back to hold it in place?

[Tim Crosby]

What about softening the horn (heat or?) and then pressing on the iron band? Would the horn be plastic enough to deform and allow the iron ring on but then "bounce" back to hold it in place?

 That's next on the list.

   Tim

[Arcturus]

I love experimental archaeology!  Carry on, and keep reporting the findings, this is fun... I'm finding this whole thing fascinating!

[Tim Crosby]

 Here is the latest and probably the last shot at this. I started with a collar and an iron ring that has an OD of 1 1/16th and an ID of about ¾”. I turned a channel in the collar right at 3/4s” and about 3/32nds wide. Then tapered one side of the ring and the collar a bit, heated the horn in boiling water until it was soft, I could squeeze it oval with my fingers. I tried to tap the ring on and could not even get it started. I took a little more off the collar, reheated and the ring...it popped on! You can see in the Pic the slight bulge that the ring had to go over.
 One success does not prove much but if it is repeatable that suits me. So I tried it again this morning with a ring that was a little bigger all around and was able to repeat the process. You can see the dark strip where the ring had to slide down. I tapered the inside of this one too but it still took a couple of pretty good smacks to get it down.
 Not sure I would go through this to make a repair but at least we know it can be done using tools available in the day. I could have made Ten+ replacement collars and tips in this amount of time I spent on this but at least I know now how it was done or have a good idea. Then again I don’t have the experience or ingenuity the craftsman that made the repair may have had.

  Tim

Hopefully the Pix alone will tell the story, the last one is of it with a quick finish on it, still need some touch-up, any questions just ask.
     


















 This Morning:

[Mike from OK]

Nice work Tim... Looks like you solved the mystery.

Mike

[BOB HILL]

Tim, that's one of the things I like about you. You are persistent. Congratulations.
Bob

[Craig Wilcox]

Way to go, Tim, and many thanks for being persistent AND showing us how it's done.

[Marcruger]

I have another "guess" as to how it was done.  Who says that original tip piece is one piece? 

It could be that the horn we see above and below the metal band is actually two pieces, fitted in from either side of the metal collar.  Either glued together or threaded together.  Heck, they could even be a very tight press fit if you have a metal collar holding them together. 

Here is my very out-of-scale and poorly drawn sketch.  But it does get across my point. 
Could this be possible?   God Bless,   Marc

[Marcruger]

In other words....how do we know there isn't a join underneath that metal band?  The threading on the inside would hide the join, as would the metal band.  The upper and lower pieces could have been made out of the same piece o' horn.

Just thinking out loud.  God Bless,   Marc