Author Topic: Bag and Horn for a Jaeger?  (Read 2079 times)

Offline Mark Elliott

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Bag and Horn for a Jaeger?
« on: July 08, 2019, 11:30:47 PM »
I have been asked about an appropriate shot pouch and powder horn to go with a Jaeger carried in PA in the first half of the 18th century.   I have no idea.   So,  I am asking here.    Can anyone point me to any relevant resources?     I am not aware of any references that I have that have any horns or pouches prior to the F&I War.   

Offline Tim Crosby

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Re: Bag and Horn for a Jaeger?
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2019, 12:21:43 AM »
 Another Good question. I would think when we talk Jaeger we are talking a German owner, so my thinking would be Eastern Pa. For the 1st half of the 18thC I would think little if any engraving, a simple horn with a flat butt, may have had a natural shaped opening. A pretty simple tip with a filed ring/collar for the strap. Maybe 12 to 18" putting the average at about 15", butt in the 2 1/2- 3" range, proportionate to the horn. All one color.
 Late 1750's I think you would see more engrailed, engraved, lobed butts, turned Butts, map and campaign hors and the beginning of the Philly styling. 
 These are my thoughts I would like to hear others thoughts. As for Bags I am pretty much lost, I would think some of the ones James Rogers posted on the other thread would work, I liked the belt bag idea.

  Tim 

Offline Mark Elliott

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Re: Bag and Horn for a Jaeger?
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2019, 12:51:00 AM »
Tim,

Thanks for the response.   I did find some early 18th century horns in one of my references.   I still have nothing for the bag, though.   

Offline Marcruger

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Re: Bag and Horn for a Jaeger?
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2019, 04:44:16 AM »
Mark, I believe this one is mid 18th Century. The rifle appears European. You probably wouldn’t go far wrong with pattern. God Bless, Marc


Offline Ron Scott

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Re: Bag and Horn for a Jaeger?
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2019, 03:12:55 PM »
Hi Mark,  Are you thinking about a European sourced bag and horn or an Colonial made set? 

chilehead

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Re: Bag and Horn for a Jaeger?
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2019, 05:20:35 PM »
I'd respectfully suggest that your challenge with this project is that you're having to deal with a period of dramatic transition. The notion of the horn and bag set, as we understand it, was apparently just beginning to catch on, wrapping up several centuries of all sorts of other outlandish (to our eyes) methods of carrying ammunition. Wooden flasks, ornate metal ones, tortoise shells, stiff boiled leather containers, and hollowed out stag antlers, were all accepted approaches before the classic powder horn was widely adopted.  I've even seen a documented early 18th century powder flask made out of a whole lobster claw! How weird is that? The actual horns that can be confidently dated to such an early era were, for the most part, flattened flasks made of horn with all sorts of metal hardware, often almost unrecognizable as a horn per se. As usual, of course, items most commonly used by poor people haven't survived to any great degree, so it seems reasonable to assume that it would have been common to 'cut to the chase' and use a horn in a relatively straightforward and unaltered form among those folks, since it's such an obvious expedient.

Bags present a similar challenge. Belt pouches of various kinds were common, as they had been since the early medieval period and before, long before they had anything to do with guns. Once carrying ammunition became the focus, all sorts of ingenious contraptions were developed, including separate ball compartments built into powder flasks and integral leather bullet pouches designed and built as part of the flasks. Plenty of period European outfits exist, and are depicted in art, that follow the general scheme of a belt-mounted bullet pouch with a permanently attached flask, often dangling underneath in a pretty awkward looking fashion.

I'd love to hear other thoughts on this, and wish you luck on your project!

Offline James Rogers

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Re: Bag and Horn for a Jaeger?
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2019, 05:45:23 PM »
I'd respectfully suggest that your challenge with this project is that you're having to deal with a period of dramatic transition. The notion of the horn and bag set, as we understand it, was apparently just beginning to catch on, wrapping up several centuries of all sorts of other outlandish (to our eyes) methods of carrying ammunition. Wooden flasks, ornate metal ones, tortoise shells, stiff boiled leather containers, and hollowed out stag antlers, were all accepted approaches before the classic powder horn was widely adopted.  I've even seen a documented early 18th century powder flask made out of a whole lobster claw! How weird is that? The actual horns that can be confidently dated to such an early era were, for the most part, flattened flasks made of horn with all sorts of metal hardware, often almost unrecognizable as a horn per se. As usual, of course, items most commonly used by poor people haven't survived to any great degree, so it seems reasonable to assume that it would have been common to 'cut to the chase' and use a horn in a relatively straightforward and unaltered form among those folks, since it's such an obvious expedient.

Bags present a similar challenge. Belt pouches of various kinds were common, as they had been since the early medieval period and before, long before they had anything to do with guns. Once carrying ammunition became the focus, all sorts of ingenious contraptions were developed, including separate ball compartments built into powder flasks and integral leather bullet pouches designed and built as part of the flasks. Plenty of period European outfits exist, and are depicted in art, that follow the general scheme of a belt-mounted bullet pouch with a permanently attached flask, often dangling underneath in a pretty awkward looking fashion.

I'd love to hear other thoughts on this, and wish you luck on your project!

You can hear my thoughts just by reading yours ; )

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Bag and Horn for a Jaeger?
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2019, 06:22:09 PM »
Mark, I believe this one is mid 18th Century. The rifle appears European. You probably wouldn’t go far wrong with pattern. God Bless, Marc


Looking at this picture, it seems to me, since the shooter is using a wheelock arm, it depicts more of the late 16th C, early17th C, than 18th C.
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Offline Mark Elliott

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Re: Bag and Horn for a Jaeger?
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2019, 08:54:04 PM »
Hi Mark,  Are you thinking about a European sourced bag and horn or an Colonial made set?

I think a Colonial sourced set might be more appropriate and easier to do. 

chilehead

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Re: Bag and Horn for a Jaeger?
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2019, 02:18:41 PM »
I'd respectfully suggest that your challenge with this project is that you're having to deal with a period of dramatic transition. The notion of the horn and bag set, as we understand it, was apparently just beginning to catch on, wrapping up several centuries of all sorts of other outlandish (to our eyes) methods of carrying ammunition. Wooden flasks, ornate metal ones, tortoise shells, stiff boiled leather containers, and hollowed out stag antlers, were all accepted approaches before the classic powder horn was widely adopted.  I've even seen a documented early 18th century powder flask made out of a whole lobster claw! How weird is that? The actual horns that can be confidently dated to such an early era were, for the most part, flattened flasks made of horn with all sorts of metal hardware, often almost unrecognizable as a horn per se. As usual, of course, items most commonly used by poor people haven't survived to any great degree, so it seems reasonable to assume that it would have been common to 'cut to the chase' and use a horn in a relatively straightforward and unaltered form among those folks, since it's such an obvious expedient.

Bags present a similar challenge. Belt pouches of various kinds were common, as they had been since the early medieval period and before, long before they had anything to do with guns. Once carrying ammunition became the focus, all sorts of ingenious contraptions were developed, including separate ball compartments built into powder flasks and integral leather bullet pouches designed and built as part of the flasks. Plenty of period European outfits exist, and are depicted in art, that follow the general scheme of a belt-mounted bullet pouch with a permanently attached flask, often dangling underneath in a pretty awkward looking fashion.

I'd love to hear other thoughts on this, and wish you luck on your project!

You can hear my thoughts just by reading yours ; )

There goes that pesky Vulcan Mind Meld stuff again, @!*%?&.

chilehead

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Re: Bag and Horn for a Jaeger?
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2019, 02:25:44 PM »
Mark, I believe this one is mid 18th Century. The rifle appears European. You probably wouldn’t go far wrong with pattern. God Bless, Marc


Looking at this picture, it seems to me, since the shooter is using a wheelock arm, it depicts more of the late 16th C, early17th C, than 18th C.

Agreed. Interesting that there doesn't seem to be any sort of powder container in evidence, horn or otherwise.

And, judging from the relative positions of his gun barrel and horse's head, I'd say it depicts a feller who's fixing to walk home, hobbles or no.

Fred

Offline thecapgunkid

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Re: Bag and Horn for a Jaeger?
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2019, 02:37:40 PM »
When trying for a specific era or personae, the thing to do is start simple and plain.  Pick a bag pattern from a document, such as shown here, and follow the advice of the folks who spoke about the horn.  Once you have the material and a basic horn, you can finish and decorate it as you learn some more.  The finish work is what people see...
You looked through Madison Grants book and maybe did some searches off his bibliography...right?




Offline James Rogers

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Re: Bag and Horn for a Jaeger?
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2019, 03:55:42 PM »
This is a mid 18th century German engraving IIRC. For the German the elite, the wheel lock was carried thru by the Germans into that period for target and sport shooting.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2019, 04:00:29 PM by James Rogers »