A valid test?

[Michael]

Two weekends ago my family and I participated in the 250Th anniversary of the surrender of Fort Niagara to the English. Before every tactical there is a safety inspection of all the troops that are taking the field. Included as part of the inspection all the solders are required to 'hang' the firearm by the trigger from a finger with the lock at half cock. I understand that the idea is to make certain that the lock will hold securely in the half cock or 'safe' position.

My question is, is this a proper test of a locks safety or is it asking the lock to do something it was never intended to do? I ask this question because during the first inspection the nose of my sear broke off and although the lock would still function it would allow the cock to drop from the half cock position if the trigger was pulled. I took the lock out of the stock and the very tip of the sear nose chipped off and left enough of the sear to catch in the notches (halfcock and fullcock) but not hold properly in the halfcock notch.

The lock is from my copy of the John Bumford trade gun pictured in "Of Sorts for Provincials" and is not a production lock. The sear, tumbler and lockplate and pan are made from wrought iron and case hardened. I'm guessing that I did not drawback the sear enough and it was too brittle and that caused it to break. I have made a new sear and will caseharden it this weekend so I can get the lock put back together so I can take the gun up to Dixon's.

I'm interested in all opinions on this topic.

Michael

[Longknife]

This has been discussed here before and it was pretty well agreed that any half cock notch will fail if enough pressure is put on the trigger. There are no set rules on how much pressure that tiny little sear should withstand but I would assume it should at least hold the weight of the gun. I would just be glad it failed on a test and not during use which could have been a disaster?...Ed

[T*O*F]

Included as part of the inspection all the solders are required to 'hang' the firearm by the trigger from a finger with the lock at half cock.

That process only tests for release less than the weight of the gun; ie, if the gun weighs 9 lbs the half cock will hold if anything less than 9 lbs is applied to the trigger.  It's really not a test for anything because if you had a 10 lb. trigger pull, you could put it at full cock and still pass the test.

[rich pierce]

I'd sure like to see the gun.  I'd be reluctant to subject any lock of mine to such a test.  I understand the need for safety but...

[Stophel]

makes me cringe every time I hear of people hanging their guns by the trigger...

[T*O*F]

makes me cringe every time I hear of people hanging their guns by the trigger

How is that any different than hanging lead weights off a wire to test trigger pull?  Point of contact is the same, yer just using the gun's weight in place of the lead weight.

[Stophel]

This isn't testing trigger pull.  This is prying against a tiny little piece of metal.

[T*O*F]

This is prying against a tiny little piece of metal.

It's not prying, it's hanging and there is a difference.  If it can't support 9 lbs, it was doomed to fail eventually anyhow, probably under a less auspicious occasion.

[Artificer]

Well, for a change, this is definitely in my field of experience, so I hope I may be of some help.  (Funny thing I just got done PM'ing JD about this to a point and since I saved the post for future use, I won't have to do nearly so much retyping.  Grin.)

Back in the 70's, there were quite a few "Experts" who POUNDED on hammers set on the half cock notch to "check them for safety" in the North South Skirmish Association.  Can't begin to tell you how many good locks and trigger jobs those idiots ruined.  Knowledgeable people didn't do that, but there were plenty of "Experts" who did.  Those of us who worked the guns brought it up to the firearms committee and we got that stopped eventually, though there were still an idiot here and there who did it.  I actually found a reference in an Original Confederate Ordnance Manual in the collection of the National Park Service in Fredericksburg, VA library that clearly stated NOT to do such a thing.  Of course, this came from the earlier U.S. Ordnance Manual.  So it was something enough "experts" had messed up even way back then.  That information helped turn the tide so the Firearms Committee wrote some strong rules about it and stopped it at the inspections at the Nationals.

OK, so I began reenacting as a Confederate Marine in 1980 and DANG if they weren't also pounding on hammers at half cock during the safety inspection.  (BTW, a few "experts" who inspected guns used in living history at the National Parks did the same nonsense back then.)  Since I had already been the junior armorer on THE Marine Corps Rifle Team and was known for working reenactor guns, I started to get that changed.  When I formed and Commanded a Virgiinia Infantry Company, I actually got to "be" one of the Inspectors and spent the next couple of years teaching others not to do it.  I have a good story about the inspections at the 125th year anniversary reenactment of 1st Manassas (or "Bull Run" if you are from the North) but that will have to wait for another post. 

I even caught one "inspector" at the World Championships doing it in 1996 at Wednock, England.  Though in his case, I'm sure he knew it would hurt the locks and he was doing it deliberately to break other competitors' guns as we knew that about him from years past.  When he broke one of my shooter's original Rogers and Spencers Revolver half cock notch and I found out, I was so mad I was stomping towards the inspection tent to take his scalp.  Forunately the U.S. Team Captain saw me before I got there and I explained it to him.  He told me it was better if he complained officially than if I confronted the guy, so I backed off.   I did see that "inspector" later on by himself and since I was the only Armourer there from any International Team, all the shooters got to know me by my face.  I confronted the guy and told him if he ever broke another gun from one of my Shooters or ANY shooter on any Team, I would break something on him.  He took me seriously. 

When I got back into Rev War reenacting in 1998, DANG if some of the safety inspectors were pounding on cocks set at half cock there as well.   Once again, I began an unofficial program to instruct others on how not to inspect locks.

OK, so where did the test of putting the hammer or cock on half cock and GENTLY lowering the musket and hanging it by the trigger come from?   To be absolutely honest, I'm not completely sure, but knowledgeable firearms inspectors were doing that at the NSSA Spring and Fall National Championships in the 1970's.  I was taught that by a Mentor in the same time period.  I believe the test originally came from an original Pre Civil War U.S. Ordnance Manual, but I can't prove that.  I don't remember if it was in the original Civil War period Union or Confederate Manuals, but I'll try to dig out my copy of the Confederate Ordnance manual and check that out.

TOF already made good points about the procedure of hanging the musket on half cock by one finger on the trigger.  It is not, nor ever intended to be an absolute test, as we all know a half cock that was good can snap off when just the right conditions exist or just from long usage and wear.   What it DOES do is show the half cock won't work at all if the cock or hammer slips off the full cock notch.  As TOF mentioned, because trigger pull weights on the both Civil War and Flintlock muskets are often heavier than the weight of the musket.   What is ALSO shows is if the reenactor himself messed up his lock and it is not safe.  Trust me, that happens all too often with reenactors though it is not "common" by any means.  You get enough reenactors and the small percentage of ones who do it, just give greater numbers of it happenig.  It usually comes from ignorance and from people who don't actually shoot live rounds from muzzleloaders.  I've known some Civil War reenactors who have shot over 10,000 blanks and only fired a few live rounds or never fired a live round at all. 

Even though we don't directly aim at opposing reenactors closer than 25 yards (at that range and shorter distances we aim over the heads of opposing forces OR move off to beyond 25 yards.  Hand to hand combat reenacting is almost never allowed unless the two opposing forces have worked it out VERY WELL before the reenactment and even then - many events won't allow it) even so - if the half cock notch fails, it could injure the person firing the blank round or, people around him.

People who only hunt or shoot competively don't treat their guns like reenactors do because they aren't simulating combat and the stress on the guns that brings.   Reenactors have developed a long string of safety precautions to keep unintentional accidents from happening and this is one of them.  We worked that out in Civil War reenacting in the early 80's on a more formal scale than had ever been written down before. 
 

[Artificer]

Folks,

For those of you who have always used "civilian type" muzzleloaders, you should Thank God you have a fly in your tumbler so it will be safe and you can get a really good trigger pull fairly easy - compared to a military percussion or flintlock lock.  Problems with the half cock notch are the bain of those of us who do trigger jobs on the military muzzleloading muskets, because most don't have a fly or it is illegal in most competitions with them to put a fly in the tumbler. 

When I do a trigger job on military muskets, I often spend as much if not more time reshaping the half cock notch as I do working on the sear notch - ESPECIALLY on Italian repro guns.

You have to be REAL CAREFUL the nose of the flint will clear the top of the half cock notch when doing trigger work on them.  I test for this by taking the sear spring and mainspring off the lock and screwing the sear in position.  Then I pull the tail of the sear to just where the nose of the sear clears the full cock notch and HOLD the sear in that position.  With my other hand, I move the tumbler around to see if the nose of the sear touches the top of the half cock notch.  If it does, you have to file or grind the top of the half cock notch so it doesn't. 

Now, that will work as long as the shooter keeps pressure on the trigger throughout recoil.  However, if the shooter was trained as a competitive .22 shooter and especially as an International .22 shooter, those guys seem to have all been trained to "get off" the trigger right after the trigger releases the sear.  That will cause havoc in a gun without a fly because it allows the nose of the sear to go forward and catch or sheer off the half cock notch.  We have to "re-teach" a lot of .22 shooters not to do that on military muskets used in competition.

If there is enough meat on the tumbler, what I do is re-cut the half cock notch so there is no pressure on the nose of the sear, but the notch catches the top and bottom of the sear further back from the nose where the sear is stronger.  The problem with this is sometimes you can't do it on some tumblers because the hammer or cock would then be too close to the nipple or frizzen after you have modified the half cock and you can't get a percussion cap on the cone or the flint won't clear the frizzen.   The best thing then is to weld up the tumbler and cut it in this manner higher up the arc of the tumbler and yes, you sometimes have to also do the same thing to the full cock notch and move it up a little higher as well.  That makes the "throw" of the hammer longer and increases lock time, which usually is not a good thing.  But if a little more throw of the hammer or cock keeps you from having half cock problems, it is a small price to pay and most people never notice the difference.

[Stophel]

If there is enough meat on the tumbler, what I do is re-cut the half cock notch so there is no pressure on the nose of the sear, but the notch catches the top and bottom of the sear further back from the nose where the sear is stronger. 

This causes a wedge effect, and can easily pop off the hook of metal on the tumbler.  Trust me.

[Artificer]

Oh, one more thing I forgot.  The usual manner when inspecting guns for International Competition to check the half cock is also to set the hammer or cock on half cock and suspend the gun by just having your finger on the trigger as well.   So it is a very common safety inspection point and like TOF said, if it won't hold the weight of the gun, it definitely is not working.

[Artificer]

If there is enough meat on the tumbler, what I do is re-cut the half cock notch so there is no pressure on the nose of the sear, but the notch catches the top and bottom of the sear further back from the nose where the sear is stronger. 

This causes a wedge effect, and can easily pop off the hook of metal on the tumbler.  Trust me.

It can do that if you don't round the outer edge of the half cock notch and/or if you don't reharden and anneal the tumbler after shaping it.  I've done this on civil war locks and they are still working fine 25 years later. 

[Artificer]

Also, I think it has to do with the different shape of military sears compared to many civilian lock sears.  With many military sears, if you set it up so the small forward edge of the nose of the sear doesn't touch, the larger boss behind the nose of the sear takes up the force when it slams into the half cock notch, if the sear slips off.  

[Artificer]

Oh, and with civilian style locks without a fly, I've seen sears snap off when they were set up the other way and they slammed into the half cock notch after slipping off the full cock notch.  I've also seen half cock notches torn off civiliian style locks without flys and sometimes the sears also break when that happens.  

So severe damage can be caused when a sear slips off the full cock notch into half cock,  no matter how it is set up.   But it seems I would rather have to repair a lock than a hole in my body because a half cock or sear failed.  Grin.

[Michael]

My thanks to everyone for their opinions. My personal opinion is that this is not a good test of the functioning of the lock. The officer inspecting the guns was also wiggling the cock up and down by pulling on the top jaw screw ( remember the gun is pointing straight down suspended by the trigger) rotating the tumbler between halfcock and fullcock. This is not a big beefy military lock, it is 6  1/4" long, closer to a fowler or rifle lock in size with no fly and no bridle on the tumbler. The tip of the sear broke because I didn't temper it enough and it was too brittle. My fault, experience is the best teacher!!!!

I think a better test of the lock would be to leave the cock down in the fired position and hand the gun to the inspector and let him draw it to halfcock and exert a REASONABLE amount of pressure on the trigger to see that the sear will hold the cock at the halfcock position.   

I agree with Stophel, it makes me cringe as well. I read the earlier post on locks and agree with Jim Chambers that with enough force on the trigger any lock will fail and break the sear or tumbler notch or cam the sear nose out of the halfcock notch.

As a thought has any one ever tested the trigger pull weight on an original military musket lock? It would be interesting to compare it with the reproduction locks.

Michael

[Pete G.]

My experience with originals is limited to a grand total of two, unless you count a few more experiences with trapdoor Springfields. Now granted that is a limited number, but all were consistently in the 7 to 8# range with the exception of one trapdoor that turned out to have had a broken sear spring. I'm thinking that the trigger pull was probably even more 100+ years ago. Smooth and crisp, but heavy by today's standards.
It is my understanding that the heavy pull is necessary so that when the trigger "breaks" the finger pressure will cause the sear to jump clear of the half cock notch. Whether it was designed as such, or it just works out that way I don't know; I suspect the latter, but the fact of the matter is that it doesn't really become a problem until someone starts messing with a lock to lighten the pull. We use these things as toys now, so we want a nice pull, but the original intent was a weapon for recruits on a battlefield that first and foremost had to work properly first time everytime. There is no room for finely tuned precision equipment in the mud and dust of a military campaign.
Bottom line: Keep the trigger, heavy, authentic and safe. Besides, you are just shooting blanks anyway, what does it matter?
I suppose the test could be considered valid in that it proves that the half cock notch is intact, but it seems to me that you are putting a tool to a test that it was not designed for. Sort of like using a chisel to open a paint can.

[Artificer]

I think a better test of the lock would be to leave the cock down in the fired position and hand the gun to the inspector and let him draw it to halfcock and exert a REASONABLE amount of pressure on the trigger to see that the sear will hold the cock at the halfcock position.   

As a thought has any one ever tested the trigger pull weight on an original military musket lock? It would be interesting to compare it with the reproduction locks.

Michael

Michael,

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but have some questions about your statements.

As to your suggested test, what is a "reasonable" amount of pressure on the trigger to see if the sear will hold the half clock at the half cock position?  I've actually seen some folks inspect the half cock that way and they use way too much pressure and certainly more than the weight of the gun.  On some imported reproduction locks, I've seen them break or bend half cock notches that way.  You can't really get consistent tests when it is up to the "feel" of people and many people have a tendency to go "gorilla grip" when they are doing that.

Also, how do you quantify that?  What is reasonable to some people is too much force to others.  How do you regulate that?  Maybe if they had trigger pull weights (not spring devices as they are often horribly inaccurate), and IF everyone could agree on how much weight was the bare minimum, that would be a way to do it.  The problem with that is, "Who is going to buy and be in charge of making sure there are trigger pull weights at each event?"  However, as already pointed out, the weight of most muskets is 10 pounds or less.  That isn't too much pressure to check the half cock notch.  I am not sure, but I don't think your fowler weighs ten pounds, does it?  That means there should not have been even that much pressure pot on your half cock notch and sear.

Since I wasn't there, I can't comment on how the inspector did the full inspection.  I've seen my share of ham handed inspectors in many places, including the ones I've already mentioned.  Unfortunately, most people who do the inspecting are not gun builders or armorers.

[Artificer]

Military locks were designed to be "beefy" and with very strong springs to ensure frizzens would spark even with poorly fitting flints, or percussion hammers would consistently set off the caps in combat.  A gun that doesn't go "BANG" in combat when you need it causes the soldier to at least lose confidence, if not his life.  Loss of confidence will lose a battle before it begins.  The interior parts were larger and more robust to take more stress and not require as much maintenance (i.e. fixing) than civilian arms. In the 17th and early 18th century, European nations were sending their troops all over the world and far from where real gunsmiths were available.  There is evidence they sent some lock parts along with the artificers (when they went in large numbers) but the parts had to be hand fitted.  Smaller numbers of troops at some forts and destinations, had to hope there was a local blacksmith who could repair guns because they often did not have an Artificer who went with them.   The guns had to be strong enough to be serviceable for quite some time without someone qualified to repair them.

One of Pete G's excellent points was this: "It is my understanding that the heavy pull is necessary so that when the trigger "breaks" the finger pressure will cause the sear to jump clear of the half cock notch. Whether it was designed as such, or it just works out that way I don't know; I suspect the latter, but the fact of the matter is that it doesn't really become a problem until someone starts messing with a lock to lighten the pull."

I am not sure if it was intentional, though it certainly could have been and most likely was part of the consideration.  (Sometimes we don't give people in the day credit for things just because we can't find a written source document for it.  I call that "looking at earlier peoples as if they were animated manikins rather than people.")  It certainly was part of the effect.  

What we also have to consider was how most military arms were meant to be used in the 18th century right up to the beginning of our Civil War.  Volley firing was the order of the day for military muskets against opposing armies and especially flint muskets because they wanted firepower.  (Yes I know there were exceptions to this general rule.)  When you volley fire, you JERK the trigger and that means the sear has little chance of hitting the half cock notch as Pete G mentioned.

As to original guns, I've worked a few.  I've only worked about four original Brown Besses as they aren't considered as accurate by International Shooters as the St. Etienne (Charleville) type muskets and our own M1816 through M1840 muskets which were copies and upgrades of the 18th century Charlieville.  The four Brown Bess original trigger pulls went from 10 to 13 pounds when using actual trigger pull weights.  (I was interested in how heavy the trigger pulls actually were, so I occasionally borrowed military trigger pull weights that go up to 18 pounds with different weights on them.)  I've worked a couple dozen of the "M1816 genre" of muskets and their original trigger pulls went from 10 to 14 pounds.  They had a tendency to be a bit heavier than the Brown Besses.  That is too small of a sampling for other than a "feeling" about how they tended to be heavier, though.

Now, I honestly don't know how many original 1855, 1861 and 1863
Springfield muskets I worked on during 23 years between 1974 and 2003 at the National Shoots and at home in between. It was a bunch, though.  (I didn't go to the Nationals when I was overseas or stationed on the west coast during those years.)  Their trigger pull weights also went from about 10 to 13 pounds.   I haven't worked as many original P1853 and other Enfield Rifles and Musketoons, but it certainly was well over a dozen, if not two dozen.  Their trigger pulls were a bit lighter at occasionally as light as 8 pounds to more generally 9 to 11 pounds.  

But, the one original Civil War period gun NSSA shooters love to shoot that absolutely takes the cake are Smith Carbines.  The 18 pound military weight set wouldn't even BEGIN to set off the hammer on most of them.  I had to jury rig weights from two sets and I found they went from as little as 19 pounds to as much as 27 pounds.  Even when the adrenaline is pumping in combat and you have much more strength than usual, that must have been a bear to try to shoot such a light little carbine accurately.  That is also why it is such a bear to bring those trigger pulls down to between four and five pounds and still have everything function properly.

I've worked a couple Swiss Federal Rifles, including one I used to own, and they went from 8 to 10 pounds.  

Comparing them to more modern guns the M1 Garand and M14 had trigger pull weights of a minimum of 4 1/2 to 7 pounds.  Most go 5 1/2 to 6 1/2 pounds.  For NM, we set them up no less than about 4 3/4 as a trigger set up right at 4 1/2 pounds is going to double and triple or soon fail.  The M1903 rifles had a minimum trigger pull weight of 3 pounds, but from Arsenal rebuild, they had to go at least 3 1/2 pounds.  M16A1 rifles went from 5 to 8, though most of them were on the higher side.  M16A2 rifles go now from 5 to 9 1/2, though after we deliberately measured and recorded over 1,200 at Edson Range, the two heaviest pulls from the tallest cam notches caused them to have a maximum of 11 to 14 1/2 pounds.  

Modified to add:  Sorry, forgot to mention four original Sharps carbines I've worked on they went from 12 to 14 poiunds.  Three original Galagher carbines were in that range as well.  Never worked a Spencer as they don't shoot them at NSSA, but a couple I've tested ran 12 to 16 pounds.  It seems they liked heavier trigger pulls for the Cavalry.