Author Topic: Every Man A Cobbler; Threads , Needles and Waxes  (Read 3111 times)

Offline thecapgunkid

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1078
  • Matthew 25:40
Every Man A Cobbler; Threads , Needles and Waxes
« on: November 30, 2019, 01:58:34 AM »
Since most of the folks here in Accoutrements and a lot of crafts people I meet on site are interested in sewing and materials, I thought  I’d pass on some of the crans taught to me over the years.  If there’s enough value and interest, I’ll keep going  with threads like this.  Else, I’m content to just cobble stuff.
Take a look at this YouTube for a minute;



Obviously a well practiced skill, winding and tapering a thread end to sew with is almost a joy in itself.  The person doing that in the video  is using an unwaxed Linen thread, single ply. Search the web with phrases like…”shoemaking thread”…or…”Unwaxed thread”… and so on and eventually you’ll come across something like this;




That stuff is mostly used by professional crafts people.  The consumer or more easily accessible version is artificial sinew, shown on the right, or spools of 4-5 ply, unwaxed Linen ( flax) shown on the left.  Sinew is not as sacrilegious as it sounds.  It’s color is almost identical to hand-waxed thread if applied the right way and it will taper to apply to tighter stitches on more primitive looking projects.  Unwaxed Linen thread is meant to be gopped up in a machine during the machines stitch cycle in the repair shop.  It differs from the synthetic or waxed threads in that its wind is clockwise whereas the waxed, machine stuff is counter clockwise.  Haven’t a clue as to why.

As with almost everything else in Living History, the best thread  comes from a crafts person.  Spinners are ideal.  I still use  that spun and wound out of  1 part flax (linen) and 2 parts  hemp.    I once knew an English woman named Maggie who delivered to me the best clothing I still wear and the best thread I still sew with.   The bad news is that, after parting with her and everybody else  when I ventured off into Cowboy Action, I lost contact. Upon going back to a Rendezvous a year or two ago for a couple of three hours between the cataracts and the turnover I did not see a lot of folks I knew fifteen years earlier.  The good news is she made me enough to last me at my age until I am either walking the streets of glory or roasting over a slow fire.  I tapered the end on this piece;



A lot of Cordwainers will tell you that the most critical part of sewing is the handwax you use.   Research enough and you’ll find that the ingredients are Pine Resin, Pine Pitch (tar) and beeswax. Mixing them in different proportions, with a lot of touchy-feely experience will produce wax grades that are even seasonal.  More pine goo will yield a “Winter Wax” and  more beeswax will yield a “Summer  Wax”.  The former is well documented as needing a firkin of cold water to keep from falling apart and the latter will stand up to ninety degree heat..  You can’t sew with hog bristles without it.
Winter wax, on the left, is generally darker, more aromatic, and stickier.  The summer wax, on the right, is more solid and harder.  Off the shelf beeswax, in the center,  will do  for starters.  Cordwainers using hand wax are said to be responsible for the coloring on Meershaum pipes.





The legendary Hog Bristles  require a lot of practice to work with.  I can’t document harness needles as being present in the 18th Century ( Ladies used very fine needle point needles, but it is not clear whether  shoemakers picked up on them)  but I use them all the time.   Search for  “John James” or “Osborne” Harness needles.  If you are going to taper and wax thread ends ( requires sewing with an awl) then pick the middle range of utterly confusing size charts when you order.










If there’s enough interest or folks find this stuff of value, then I’ll crank out another long winded dissertation on tapering thread and stitching in a clamp.  Else, I have to figure out how to make a leather jerkin/weskit so I have something to do this winter.
Don’t shoot yore eye out, kid,
The Capgun Kid


Offline msellers

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 599
Re: Every Man A Cobbler; Threads , Needles and Waxes
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2019, 02:17:41 AM »
First, let me say thank you very much for sharing what knowledge you have so far. This is one of those trades and skills that I have been doing with mediocrity for years. It is very useful to help better undertand all of these skills. Hope to eventually be content with where my leather work is. I would really enjoy to learn more from what would share with ua all.
Mike

Offline Craig Wilcox

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2444
Re: Every Man A Cobbler; Threads , Needles and Waxes
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2019, 03:15:07 AM »
For someone who used to sew his own sails, that really is interesting.  Didn't know that hog bristles were actually used in sewing anything!  Probably a very strong thread.

But, my curiosity is almost overwhelming:  How did cobblers, shoe makers, wind up being called "cordwainers"?
Craig Wilcox
We are all elated when Dame Fortune smiles at us, but remember that she is always closely followed by her daughter, Miss Fortune.

Offline FDR

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 329
Re: Every Man A Cobbler; Threads , Needles and Waxes
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2019, 03:25:33 AM »
Very informative! Keep it coming.

Fred

Offline Mike from OK

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1083
Re: Every Man A Cobbler; Threads , Needles and Waxes
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2019, 04:20:01 AM »
For someone who used to sew his own sails, that really is interesting.  Didn't know that hog bristles were actually used in sewing anything!  Probably a very strong thread.

But, my curiosity is almost overwhelming:  How did cobblers, shoe makers, wind up being called "cordwainers"?

If I remember correctly... .one source I read stated that cordwainer comes from cordovan, as in the leather.

But it also bears some linguistic resemblance to boatswain... Which in Dutch literally translates as "boat boy"
which alludes to the boatswain being responsible for maintenance duties concerning the vessels hull and structure.
 
Mike

Fowler610

  • Guest
Re: Every Man A Cobbler; Threads , Needles and Waxes
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2019, 04:22:12 AM »
This post is exactly why I'm here.  Had no idea there were different waxes for different seasons.  I get it.  Thanks X 1000. 

Offline thecapgunkid

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1078
  • Matthew 25:40
Re: Every Man A Cobbler; Threads , Needles and Waxes
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2019, 04:36:35 AM »
Thanks for the replies, folks.  Next post will be about tapering and threading the needle.

Mike from Ok captured everything I have heard about the origin of Cordwainer.  I never really went too far into that research.

Offline DougS

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 434
Re: Every Man A Cobbler; Threads , Needles and Waxes
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2019, 02:32:15 PM »
Thank you for sharing your knowledge.

Very interesting. Please keep them coming.

Thank you again,

Regards,

Doug

Offline JBJ

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 584
Re: Every Man A Cobbler; Threads , Needles and Waxes
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2019, 05:53:22 PM »
Anytime you feel like posting more on the topic, go for it. I am delighted to be able to broaden my learning experience. Thank you!
J.B.

Offline Mike from OK

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1083
Re: Every Man A Cobbler; Threads , Needles and Waxes
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2019, 12:09:48 AM »
I've never used hog bristles and I doubt I ever will... I'll just have to make do with an awl and harness needles... But most of the time I skip the awl and use a stitching chisel... I know, that's cheating.

Not to hijack Capgun's post, but I'll ask while I'm here...

Last night I started working on a flint wallet made from a tanned beaver tail I had laying around and a few scraps of lightweight veg-tan. I decided to use my awl to make my holes... I used a stitch groover and laid out my holes with an 8 SPI stitch wheel... I would like to work up to 9 SPI, but I don't have a wheel for that. Needle was a Tandy #4 harness needles, thread was their carriage thread, .55 mm... Pretty small needle but the thread is pretty fine, actually a little trouble to pierce the thread for the lock to hold the thread in the eye.

It came out OK. The stitches on one side are all pretty uniform. But on the opposite side they wander all over the stitch line... Looks pretty rough. That may be in part due the uneven bumpy nature of the beaver tail, but I've had it happen on regular leather too.

This side isn't too horrible... I always struggle with corners.




This side is closer to horrible...





Any suggestions?

Mike

RoaringBull

  • Guest
Re: Every Man A Cobbler; Threads , Needles and Waxes
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2019, 06:29:13 AM »
In my experience it's a combination of not holding your awl straight up and down in relation to the leather and/or the way that you insert the second needle into the hole. I insert the first needle, then pull up on that thread and insert the second needle directly below the thread coming through the hole.

Does that make sense?

Anyway, that solved my issue when I had the same problem.

Offline Brokennock

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 656
Re: Every Man A Cobbler; Threads , Needles and Waxes
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2019, 06:43:21 AM »
"If there’s enough interest or folks find this stuff of value, then I’ll crank out another long winded dissertation on tapering thread and stitching in a clamp."
   This would.be great.
Thank you for sharing. I doubt I'll ever use hog bristles but I would like to be able to use smaller needles and smaller holes.

Offline Mike from OK

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1083
Re: Every Man A Cobbler; Threads , Needles and Waxes
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2019, 06:49:40 AM »
In my experience it's a combination of not holding your awl straight up and down in relation to the leather and/or the way that you insert the second needle into the hole. I insert the first needle, then pull up on that thread and insert the second needle directly below the thread coming through the hole.

Does that make sense?

Anyway, that solved my issue when I had the same problem.

That does make sense. And I need to really work on getting that awl sharp and polished. It isn't bad, but it's far from great.

The holes were tight so it was one needle at a time... My right hand was pushing the needle in from the side with the good stitches... Left pushing the needle with the not so good stitches. And now that you mention it I was not nearly as vigilant with my left hand as I was with my right. I usually pull my stitches tight in the exact same manner every time.

Hindsight is always 20/20, especially when someone points at it. LOL.

Thanks.

Mike

Offline thecapgunkid

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1078
  • Matthew 25:40
Re: Every Man A Cobbler; Threads , Needles and Waxes
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2019, 12:30:08 PM »
Looks fine for what it is, somewhat better than most, and don't let anybody tell you that every cobbler made perfect stitches.

Try this and post again, please.  If you are gonna use the chisel, avoid the one where the points are twisted slightly because those are for lacing.  Pay attention to the advice above as to keeping your awl straight and true, because that is ninety percent of your problem.  Was for me for about a year even without the chisel.   Only experience will make you better.

Push your left needle in first.  Take it through until the loop you leave is about three or four inches.  Grasp the thread on both sides and gently pull it forward, away from you, in the hole.  When you push your second needle through, visually check that that second thread sits BEHIND the first, like an equal sign. = . That second loop should also be about three or four inches.

Now pass the right needle up through the loop.  When you close the stitch, you'll notice that you are making a half cast, like the first knot you make when tying your shoes.  That will help keep your stitches more even.  Also, when you are done, take a smooth faced hammer and lightly pound the seam.

Give me about a week and I will try to put together a post about tapering thread and stitching.  I would like to chat with a few other Leather Guys first.

Hope this helps

Capgun


Offline James Rogers

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3107
  • James Rogers
    • Fowling Piece
Re: Every Man A Cobbler; Threads , Needles and Waxes
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2019, 06:04:43 PM »
Asian stitching chisels are a cheap alternative to pricking irons as long as you dont punch thru with them. Just mark your stitches with them like one would with a pricking iron and use a stitching awl.. Matter of fact, dull the Asian chisels a bit and they work fine for pricking irons. The picture shows a series of pricking iron marks. Asian chisels are slanted correctly just like the pricking iron teeth.





Offline Brokennock

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 656
Re: Every Man A Cobbler; Threads , Needles and Waxes
« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2019, 03:25:58 AM »
Wait?!  So the pricking iron teeth are not supposed to go all the way through the leather? Then what is the advantage over the other wheels that mark the stitch spacing?

Offline James Rogers

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3107
  • James Rogers
    • Fowling Piece
Re: Every Man A Cobbler; Threads , Needles and Waxes
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2019, 05:14:58 AM »
Correct. Pricking irons do not go thru the leather. If you have a ///// pricking wheel there is no advantage over a pricking iron. Asian stitching chisels that are all the rage in modern leather working these days are intended to go thru so one can avoid learning how to properly use an awl and be able to just "lace" up the project like a pre-punched tandy kit as opposed to juggling two needles(bristles) and an awl doing one stitch at a time. The advantage of pricking irons and wheels to overstitch wheels is the correct slant is set for you. One can get by fine with just a pair of dividers for marking stitches as well as establishing a stitch line. I dont advocate using a stitch groover for much of anything other than western cowboy style work.  You cant get a good "lay" of the stitch when its sunk in a groove. All the front will be forced straight by the groove and the rear will have a slant.

Offline thecapgunkid

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1078
  • Matthew 25:40
Re: Every Man A Cobbler; Threads , Needles and Waxes
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2019, 01:57:57 PM »
James Rogers...I dont advocate using a stitch groover for much of anything other than western cowboy style work.

The only other time  I use a groover is when doing a butt seam, but that's because I tend to be inefficient with that type of seam.  I rely on both Pricking/spacing wheel and groover to keep everything even when I get it in the block and stirrup to work.  I'll throw a stitch every time unless I lay it all out carefully before I get it on my thigh.








Offline JohnnyFM

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 352
Re: Every Man A Cobbler; Threads , Needles and Waxes
« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2019, 04:44:41 PM »
Great thread with a ton of valuable info! Thanks to all.

Artificial sinew is very strong and virtually indestructible—which is why I don’t use in my leatherwork. Over time, I’ve found, it rips through the leather making repairs cumbersome if not impossible..  I learned early to use linen thread, waxed by hand.  Linen is also very strong and tends not to cut leather which makes repairs neat and good as new.

I agree, handspun linen thread is of high quality, and I’m also glad I bought a couple of pounds spool of it from a craftswoman back in ‘99 or ‘00.  I think her name was Susan Wallace going under the trade name of Silver Shuttle.

Johnny

Offline Hungry Horse

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5414
Re: Every Man A Cobbler; Threads , Needles and Waxes
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2019, 06:15:58 PM »
I am looking forward to trying some of these products, and methods. I have done a lot of modern leather work, and some period projects as well. I was gifted many years ago a very nice stitch horse by a craftsman that made fender coverings, and dashboards for restored buggies. I am eager to put it  to use making shooting bags, and other muzzleloader related items.
 I tried using linen thread on a couple of projects, but had trouble with it knotting up, and, or, breaking, even though I waxed it with bees wax. I have had no problems with the artificial sinew, but it looks bad, and won’t take dye, or stain.

  Hungry Horse

Offline thecapgunkid

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1078
  • Matthew 25:40
Re: Every Man A Cobbler; Threads , Needles and Waxes
« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2019, 03:36:52 PM »
Johnnyfm and Horse have some good comments on the artificial sinew.  It is really a bunch of synthetic gopped up with a lot of paraffin.  I have a post coming up on tapering ends and threading finer needles that also uses sinew.

I don't like it at all on seams that have a lot of stress, but it works well when tacked with one needle rather than stitched with two where the seam is not super tight.  It also looks alright on softer leathers. It will cut leather every time when the seam is closed tightly, the way machine nylons will.