Other questions about charcoal blue sequence

[smokepole45cal]

Ive poured through a lot of previous comments on this topic but not finding answers about sequence of steps for the following:

1) You make dovetail slots for both sights and even brass name plate (top flat) THEN charcoal blue, right? Not vice versa because of risk to damaging finish I assume. Seems the fit would need filing again to remove scale.

2) Ive seen rebar used to remove barrel but if breech plug is in what do you use to grab breech end without damaging barrel? Blacksmith tongs?

3) Do you bend breech plug and drill tang hole before charcoal blueing?

4) Is it better idea NOT to charcoal blue breech plug at all?

Thanks in advance

[Eric Kettenburg]

Every time I've done it, I do it as one of the last processes before assembling the rifle.  So lugs are in place and drilled, breech tang finished along with barrel, sights installed (but remove the front sight if it's soldered together!!!).  To remove from charcoal I use a piece of bar with a hooked end for the muzzle and a piece of heavy wire with a hook for the breech plug end, hook through the tang screw hole.  Or you can use tongs on the breech lug at the rear.

[msellers]

Here is Jack Brooks description. It is pretty through, and he is willing to answer questions according to his website.
https://www.jsbrookslongrifles.com/theclassroom.htm

[jerrywh]

I confess that I have never done this but I have heated shot gun barrels up to 1500° F. without warping them and the secret is the bedding and the cooling and heating. The barrel must be heated evenly and slowly and must be bedded evenly. Jack brook's description  covers all these factors. lastly the barrel must be cooled slowly until it reaches about 800°.F.  The charcoal bedding beds the barrel evenly and the charcoal in the barrel will prevent scaling just as it does when case hardening.  I don't think this process will produce temps over 1300° because there is not a forced oxygen supply. 

[BeanStationgunmaker]

I would like to do this type of blue on my current build,but worry about ruining the bore.How likely is scaling to happen?My build is a early Lancaster and this would be more correct than rust blue or browning I believe.

[sqrldog]

American Pioneer Video has a DVD with Tom Snyder demonstrating a process for charcoal bluing a barrel. I have two barrels that Tom charcoal blued for the gunsmith that built these rifles. They are beautifully done and have absolutely zero scale in the bore. It may be worth while to invest in this video before attempting a charcoal blue on a barrel. Tim

[David Rase]

I would like to do this type of blue on my current build,but worry about ruining the bore.How likely is scaling to happen?My build is a early Lancaster and this would be more correct than rust blue or browning I believe.

I charcoal blued 4 barrels this year and all of the bores came out shiny with zero scale.  Barrels were packed in Brownell's wood charcoal.  Bores were not packed. 
David

[Jim Kibler]

I would like to do this type of blue on my current build,but worry about ruining the bore.How likely is scaling to happen?My build is a early Lancaster and this would be more correct than rust blue or browning I believe.

I charcoal blued 4 barrels this year and all of the bores came out shiny with zero scale.  Barrels were packed in Brownell's wood charcoal.  Bores were not packed. 
David

What temperature did you run them at?  How long did you hold them?

Thanks,
Jim

[BeanStationgunmaker]

Well...guess I`ll research a bit and give it a try.As long as it`s took so far I`ll be blueing it about spring time.Dave,will any wood charcoal work,or is there a certain grade that's better?

[Eric Kettenburg]

I've charcoal blued a lot of barrels over the years and never have had a problem with scale in the bore.  I don't pack the bore but at the same time, if you have easy access to powdered charcoal, I can't see how it would hurt if it gives you peace of mind.  The real key is to ensure that the entire barrel is very well embedded in the charcoal so that any excess oxygen is being consumed by the smoldering charcoal.  No oxygen to the bore, no scale.  That's how I see it.  I can't tell you what temperature I'm doing this at but my process is pretty simplistic and the barrel is being heated to a "black red" or the kind of red you'd see only in a dark room.  I absolutely do not take it out of the fire repeatedly to rub it down as per the old JHAT article - to my mind, that's asking for trouble.

[bob in the woods]

I had the DVD by Tom Snyder and although it's interesting, it wasn't what I was looking for. It involves using a charcoal bed, but with propane as a heater.  My interests lean more in the direction of historical activities, so ended up blueing one barrel as follows:   I dug a pit.  Bought some bags of maple charcoal [ popular up here ] and simply laid the barrel in the charcoal , added some to cover it, and then laid a sheet of roofing tin over it. I wouldn't claim to be knowledgable or make recommendations, but this seemed to work OK for me. 

[David Rase]

I would like to do this type of blue on my current build,but worry about ruining the bore.How likely is scaling to happen?My build is a early Lancaster and this would be more correct than rust blue or browning I believe.

I charcoal blued 4 barrels this year and all of the bores came out shiny with zero scale.  Barrels were packed in Brownell's wood charcoal.  Bores were not packed. 
David

What temperature did you run them at?  How long did you hold them?

Thanks,
Jim

I spent about 6 months experimenting with charcoal bluing in 2018.   I finally settled on 2 heat cycles at 900 degrees f for 3 hours.  I am not sure that I really need to take the temp to 900 degrees.  I plan to drop my temperature to 800 on my next barrel I charcoal blue.  I will still run 2 cycles.  I wanted a consistent deep blue/black vs the mottled splotchy blue.  If I lower my temperature to 750 degrees I can obtain the more traditional looking open fire colonial blue. 

[WadePatton]

I had the DVD by Tom Snyder and although it's interesting, it wasn't what I was looking for. It involves using a charcoal bed, but with propane as a heater.  My interests lean more in the direction of historical activities, so ended up blueing one barrel as follows:   I dug a pit.  Bought some bags of maple charcoal [ popular up here ] and simply laid the barrel in the charcoal , added some to cover it, and then laid a sheet of roofing tin over it. I wouldn't claim to be knowledgable or make recommendations, but this seemed to work OK for me.

Sounds like what I'll try.  But then I'll likely make my charcoal (in my smoker).  Any pics of your bbl results? thanks.

[Jim Kibler]

I question whether charcoal is even needed.  At temperatures in the 800-900F range scaling won't occur.  Typically this doesn't happen until around 1000F.  The reason I question the necessicity of charcoal is that I  sometimes heat steel in an electric oven at around 850F and it develops a very nice deep dark blue color that looks great to me.  It seems very durable as well.  I think there are historical references to the term "charcoal blueing", but this might just refer to the heat source.  I think all the rest we accept today was developed at Williamsburg.

Jim

[WadePatton]

I question whether charcoal is even needed.  At temperatures in the 800-900F range scaling won't occur.  Typically this doesn't happen until around 1000F.  The reason I question the necessicity of charcoal is that I  sometimes heat steel in an electric oven at around 850F and it develops a very nice deep dark blue color that looks great to me.  It seems very durable as well.  I think there are historical references to the term "charcoal blueing", but this might just refer to the heat source.  I think all the rest we accept today was developed at Williamsburg.

Jim

I'll be using wood because it's the cheapest fuel for me, and  I don't have a 48" oven at this point in my life.  But I understand what you're saying, especially if one is only after color and nothing else.

[Greg Pennell]

I haven’t tried it myself yet, but Mike Miller shows a pretty straightforward method in his new DVD set on building a “Daniel Boone Rifle”. He builds a charcoal fire in his forge, and heats the barrel right in the forge...no tube of charcoal, no packing the bore, no digging a trench. Looks to be as simple a way as it can be done...

Greg

[bob in the woods]

Wade, I don't have a photo, but it was a bit "blotchy" as someone else referred to. Frankly, I thought it was supposed to look like that !     I have done what I've heard to be "fire blueing"  , and this is very different. The fire blueing was done by heating the barrel over the forge and chasing the heat blue over the entire length. I've also done it by hanging the barrel by the tang, and using a propane torch. I got a very nice blue colour, and then rubbed some oil on it after it cooled, which really enhanced the colour. The charcoal blueing , or what I got and seemed proper to me, was a scale of sorts. Once it cools and is oiled I think it is a much tougher finish.  I'm really an rank amateur , but enjoy attempting to recreate historical gunsmithing activities.  The fire blueing is more of what I've seen on European guns in museums.

[WadePatton]

I haven’t tried it myself yet, but Mike Miller shows a pretty straightforward method in his new DVD set on building a “Daniel Boone Rifle”. He builds a charcoal fire in his forge, and heats the barrel right in the forge...no tube of charcoal, no packing the bore, no digging a trench. Looks to be as simple a way as it can be done...

Greg

Yes I saw this recently too.  No forge here yet. 

[WadePatton]

Wade, I don't have a photo, but it was a bit "blotchy" as someone else referred to. Frankly, I thought it was supposed to look like that !     I have done what I've heard to be "fire blueing"...

Yes. This not-so-perfectness goes with the sort of thing I like to do, at this point.  thanks.

[bob in the woods]

If I recall correctly, Tom Snyder's result was a tad blotchy too, so I'm not worried about my efforts. Once it's oiled up, it looks even better .  Since Tom's method wasn't what I was looking for, I forwarded the DVD along to Taylor. Perhaps he could comment if he's tried a barrel yet ?

[Clint]

I think that Jim K is right about the heat source 800F to 900F are stress relieving temperatures. Large welded things (ships) are littered with heat strips that hold 800f or so for weeks at a time. This heating preps the steel for welding and holds the post weld heat. The 18th century folks may have been on to this to some degree and the blue could be a side effect. Kind of reminds me of what vinagaroon actually started out as before it was used as stain for wood. The charcoal smolder is used as a medium for controlled heat, no hot spots or cold spots, just nice easy stress relief. I would imagine that the mottled splotches are from sap or mineral inclusions in the charcoal. Just thinking...

[BeanStationgunmaker]

Finally got to give it a try,came out with a nice splotchy color,looks 100 years old like a antique.Bore if fine,no warping.Really like the color and loo