Poor groups and pillow ticking patch size

[Daryl]

.530" and .018" patching should work fairly well, in square rifling, but would likely be too thin a patch for rounded, .016" deep rifling, or deeper yet.
The .54 cal. shooters here use about .020" to .022" with a .535" dead soft lead ball plumbers lead, or softer-yet wall sheeting.

The problems with thinner patching starts up generally, when powder charges get pressures up over 8,000psi or higher. I would think 85 to 95gr. 2F in
a .54 would give those pressures now, when using GOEX powders, & higher pressures with Swiss.

To answer your question, David, "So, I am going to try a .020 cotton patch. My question is ....is the cotton patch as tough as pillow ticking?"
i would suggest if the cotton was 100% cotton "Duck" or Denim, it would be just as tough as the ticking, maybe tougher.

[MuskratMike]

...and .530 is what I use with .015-018 ticking and 3F.

[David Price]

Daryl,

I don't know what the patching material is that the prelubed  patches are made of. I have picked them up on occasion and used them over again just to see if I could and they worked fine.

I purchase them from Eastern Maine Shooting Supplies.  I believe they are the same as OxYoke Shooting Patches. 


I load my rifle with 90 grs. of 2f for hunting with that same .530 ball .  I have never blown a patch even with that big load.  Once you establish your patch is tight enough so that it isn't blowing out, I don't see any reason to make it any tighter.

David Price

[Daryl]

I hear you David. I think the pre-pubed or dry OxYoke are or were usually a ticking material.
 
What I have found, if searching for the very best accuracy, tighter is usually better.
It depends on what you want or need from the gun.  As I've done most of my 'recent' shooting with my .69,

this tighter than necessary patching has proved to give the best accuracy as in much better accuracy than the
looser but "good enough" patching.
 
By saying the best accuracy, I am talking about shooting 'groups' 1/2 the size at 50 or 60 yards.  However,
the looser ,but adequate load was shooting 2" at 50yards and the tighter combo was shooting 3/4" to 1".

2" at 50yards and theoretically from that, 4" at 100 will kill deer out to 100yards, like they say, all day long.
Since I use this rifle as a competition rifle as well as for hunting (mostly competition these days), I "needed"
 the more accurate load.

It's all about the details.

[Davemuzz]

The "wait" for my RB order is proving to be a patience tester. I'm certain it's the holiday shipping rush that may have slowed somewhat. Anyway.....my .535 Hornady RB's is expected to arrive on Friday the 3rd.  Doubtful arrival will be in time to make it to the range.........oh well.   

[Davemuzz]

Ok Gent's. Here are some photo's and a description of how it went using the .535 PRB with .018 Mink lubed PT. Now, in addition to shooting my .54 Cal I also shot my .50 Cal GM barreled flintlock. But the .50 cal was shot using all Hornady PA Conicals....so no .50 Cal patches. It was a busy day at the range and after I walked in the .50 cal (put a different sight on the back) I then shot the .54 cal. The first shot was a bit low.....but promising. I have the descriptions on the pic. Also, I gathered up my patches and I have them from today's shoot and the last time I was there. It never occurred to me to go out and clean up my previous season. And yes....they are mine as the flint hunters have their sighting already done. As for the patches I don't see anything that appears abnormal. I know this is only a 4 shot group.....but for today it's all I could do. My next outing I will focus only on the .54 caliber. BTW....all .54 shots were with 100gr. GOEX FF.  Comments appreciated.

[Daryl]

Your 1st, 3rd and 4th shots with the .54 showed quite decent accuracy, like about 2 1/2", looks like.
Your patches, the ones with brown on them, show brown scorching from blowby. Looks like about
7 out of 12.  Likely, with 85gr. 2F, there would be no or very little blowby due to lower pressures.
 
However, 100gr. 2F GOEX is a good hunting charge, Dave. I would try a slightly thicker patch.  Note also
the top left patch shows what looks like slight cutting form a couple lands, however the other patches
do not show this. That is good. I would suggest your patches are just a bit too thin for that ball and
patch combination.

I would suggest more testing needs to be done with that combination as well as a tighter one, perhaps
with 8 or 10 oz. denim. If your muzzle has been smoothly crowned, then the 10oz. denim will give you the
best accuracy, with any load & loading should not be difficult.

[Davemuzz]

Thank you for your response. Just to clear up the shot pattern, shot #3 is 5" from the first shot. #2 was the "wild" 12" away, and #4 is 2" from the first.

I examined all of the patches very closely to determine if any had rifling cuts. None were found.

Loading the rifle with the larger .535 ball and .018 pillow ticking was somewhat tougher, but not "This is really difficult." I will give the denim patch a try and see how it fares. I will lube the denim using my TOTW mink oil.

I know I'm dealing with a .54 Cal and not my "had for years" .50 Cal GM barrel. The .50 Cal GM barrel shoots very small groups using 100gr. FF and the Hornady Pa. Conical with no bore button and obviously no patch. I believe that's because the hollow base Conical expands quickly upon ignition and seals the charge. I just think I need to shoot more (oh gosh....what a hardship!) and experiment with the suggestions made here.

Thanks!!

[Carney Pace]

Go back to basics...
What are you using for patch material and WHERE did you get it.  If bought at a fabric store it could  have some modern type material in it.  I have bought ticking and it had a % polyester content check the end label on the bolt of material. 

Carney

[Davemuzz]

All my current patches are pre-cut's from Track of the Wolf.

[Davemuzz]

I went to my bench to measure the lubed patches that I've been using. Now, (I thought) when I added new lubed patches to my existing one's from last year....that they were all from the same "batch."  It could be that I grabbed some old patches from several years ago that I used for my pistol.

I only say that up front as when I look at the lubed patches in my bag, I can clearly see they are two different shades. One is a slight yellow while the other is a bit on the clear side. So, I began to measure the thickness with my Micrometer and what I discovered is the "yellow" shaded one's all measure a pretty consistent .017 to at most .019 in thickness. However, the "new" or more clear patches measure a consistent .021 to .022.

I'm thinking the first time out this year my "spray pattern" was a result of using the thinner lubed patches. The second time out......could be a mix of the thin and thick patches.

In any event, I've now separated the patches into the correct size and my next outing I will load using the thicker patches. The pic's below show my measurements:

 

[Daryl]

Keeping them separate is, of course, good.  Change only one thing at a time when working up loads.
I have the same calipers, Hornady & like 'em.  When measuring patches with my calipers, I squeeze the tines between
forefinger and thumb and read it, compressed.  With 10oz. denim, I "get" .0220" to .0225".  With the 8oz. demim
I measure .018".
Sry- mistaken about the shot placement. The target itself is larger than I thought. However, more groups should be made
& likely with both patches, Dave.

[rich pierce]

Good luck and I mean it. The amount of spread is mystifying.

[Davemuzz]

In looking at the TOTW web site I think I've determined why the two patches Old=yellow & New=white\clear are different. TOTW web site has pre-lubed patches they call "Wonder Lube" and on the web site those are the same yellow color of my old patches. So......I've really mixed up the components likely every other shot or more.

[smylee grouch]

Another thing you might want to consider with on again off again acuraccy might be lighting conditions or direction, bench technique or muzzle placement on the bench and your actual hold. The more consistent the better.

[Dphariss]

I'm shooting my .54 caliber Green MT. barrel and not getting consistent groups. My 100 yard results are all over the place and well over a foot in size. I will get half of the shots in a 6" group, but then the other half is disappointing to say the least. I had one drop a good 20" at 100 yards.

I'm using (or have tried) loads from 80gr. FF to 110FF, a .530 Hornady RB and .018 pillow ticking with mink oil lube. The initial load into the barrel with the PRB is tight.....but not difficult. This leads me to believe I'm getting initial blow-by around the PRB.

So, I am going to try a .020 cotton patch. My question is ....is the cotton patch as tough as pillow ticking?

Thanks much.

Edit:  I entered the incorrect ball size of .520 when in fact the correct size of my shooting was using .530 Hornady RB.  I am awaiting Hornady .535 RB's to arrive.

 I don't think there are any burrs in the bore since its not cutting patches.
 The scorching is not that unusual. Could be that 535 balls will fix. I would also use Speer balls over Hornady since the Speer balls in my experience are not "belted" balls.
Try FFF powder it might work better. FF works really well in many cases and not so well in others. I don't shoot FF in most RB rifles. Just never did.  The RB is very low inertia and a faster powder may work well.
Try putting a shooting patch in the bore before the patched ball. Just press it in an inch or so with the rod or starter then load the patched ball as normal.
Accurate loads seldom shoot the best. I don't know where people got so concerned with this. I shoot .500 RBs and a heavy patch in my match rifle and it loads OK even though I use what would be a high friction load compared to Tallow etc but I also wipe every shot. Most store bought patch lubes are grossly over priced. Buy some PURE Neatsfoot Oil by the quart or gallon. It also makes a great oil to mix with properly purified beeswax to make a great multi purpose "grease" type lube.

Dan

[hanshi]

When measuring thickness with calipers I squeeze the jaws with thumb & forefinger as Daryl described.  There are basically (for our purposes) two types of ticking.  One is common "pillow ticking" which measures, for me, around .014"; and then there's "mattress ticking" which is thicker/stronger and about .018".  I've used both with the mattress material being better.  Cotton duck has worked well for me at .019".  My favorite, in most rifles, is unbleached canvas - dropcloth - which is .022" to .024" depending on whether I use one or both hands to crush it.  In my radius groove bores I use nothing else except occasional denim, when I have any.  The canvas also works like a dream in the square cut bores.  I use only two lubes; Hoppes #9 BP Lube and mink oil.  Mink oil is for the bush and Hoppes along with mink oil for practice.  Fired patches look very nice, too.

[coupe]

Well I got to the range yesterday and burned the last of the 25 lbs I bought last year. I redid the stock on my made up 54 hawken, made up cause it is a conglomeration of extra parts I've had over the years, since it was all apart thought I would check it out. Any way I made up sets of patches with different lubes and thicknesses and kinds of patches and different amounts of lubes to try, I used it for deer season and it knocked down a nice doe at 50 yds, so I had a track record to compare. All at 50 yds. 80 gr. goex .530 cast ball 3f,1st 5 light castor oil .020 cotton twill(like a light denim) 2.5 low from poa. 1.5" group. 2d 5 light castor oil .017 pillow tick 1 " high 3.5" group, 3d 5 .017 pillow tick 2" high 1.5" group, 4th 5 pillow tick with mink oil 6" spread with both patches. 1st cotton twill with mink oil low 3" and 3-4 " grouping. Now I tried cotton drill like for pocket material and castor oil and mink. did not do well no go. The results come out to a damp, not dripping but wet, pillow tick .017-.018 patch is the best for mine. The barrel is a douglas 1" rebored by R. Hoyt, .540 with .012 round bottom rifling. lastly I shot out to 100 yds. zero poa at 100 was great with pillow tick and the damp patch, the rest were covering the twelve inch black,(except the one I pulled into the white oops)
coupe

[Davemuzz]

Lot's of information so I will attempt to make it as clear as I can.

First, the patches. I recovered as many as I could and out of 13 shots I recovered 7 patches. However, patches #6&#7 have cuts. I believe I did a double patch with those two...hence the cuts. 

Shots #1-#3 grouped well. I then tapped the rear site to the right to align the POI better. So really the first 4 shots grouped well.

Powder:  Shots #1-#9 all 80gr. FF.  Shots #10-#13 all using 80gr. FFF. The FFF groups were 10" spreads. Shots #7 & #9 have the farthest spread of 11.5"....but if I remove either and assume one of these shots were the double patch, then the group shrinks to about 8".

Shot #6 was a pause between flash & Bang and I'm sure I flinched. I have no real excuse for shots #6 & #7. (The in the white)

I did only two alcohol patch swabs. One after #4 and again after #7. The loading was not difficult before I swabbed.

[Joe S]

Davemuzz -

I have the same barrel. I shoot .535 balls with .018" patches, and FF Goex or 1.5 F Swiss.

At 80 grains, I get 10" groups like yours. At 85 grains, the groups tighten up a lot, and with 90 grains, I can shoot cloverleafs. Over 100 grains, and the groups start to open again.

[Davemuzz]

Thank you Jose. I've shot using 80gr and 100gr. (I have fixed measures for 80gr, 50gr, & 100gr.) It never occurred to me to attempt 5gr. increments.....albeit I do that all the time in .1 to .5gr for reloading my modern powder firearms all the time.

I don't often use my adjustable measure....just because. I'll try 85gr, 90gr, 95gr. on my next outing.

[smylee grouch]

If it were me, I would use a smaller aiming point (aim small-miss small) and shoot 10 shot groups with more powder. As has been said only change one variable at a time. If you have a lot of those paper targets aim at 6 o,clock at the edge of the black. Save your targets for further study.

[Davemuzz]

Thanks Grouch. I've already taped up the current targets holes and then created 4 more "aim" points in each corner with each square being 12" and then I put a FO dot in the middle of each. So, now I have 5 different POA to try each different load.

BTW the black circle on those CMP regulation targets are 13" in diameter.

[smylee grouch]

Sometimes the most fun is in the experementing(sp). The big black bull is too big for me thats why I try to concentrate on that junction of black/white at 6 o,clock.

[Daryl]

If the crown is smooth, there will be no cutting, even if using a double patch.
In my opinion, the group shape and size is meaningless, unless the ball and patch
combination is optimum.

By this, I mean, if there are problems with the patches, ie: cutting, scorching, burning
as in failing to seal, then the groups are meaningless.

I would concentrate shooting at 50 or 60 yards distance, until the groups look more like
this, then, go out to 100yards to fine-tune the load, as to powder charge and accuracy.



These groups were shot with re-claimed patches, originally shot from my .69.
Too, these groups were shot after the barrel had been shortened, some 4".