English Style L & R Locks

[northmn]

At this time I am getting a flintlock half stock English style rifle in the plans.  I am currently finishing up on a 12 ga. smooth bore of that style and kind of like them.  While the 12 ga smooth bore is obviously superior, I have read some of Dpharsis arguments and thought I would handicap myself with a rifle in this style.  I have also seen some of his pictures of English halfstocks.   My quandary is that while I have a couple of L&R "Hawken" Flintlocks,  I had had broken two frozen springs due to a weakness where the roller is pinned in (the springs did not break, the roller attachment did).  I ended up hunting with a percussion because of it.  I was wondering how the other two work.  The Durs Egg and the Manton.  I built a nice little long rifle for a fellow shooter with the Durs Egg, but the springs were so strong they shattered the flints after one or two shots until I lightened them (I prefer not doing that again)  However that was many years ago, about the time the Durs Egg came out.  I have heard some bad press about the Manton also.  Curious for input.

DP

[G-Man]

I think people have mixed results.   Most of the things I've heard people have trouble with were springs being too hard or too soft, and holes/ threads being crooked, oversized or stripped.  I have a Manton on my Tennessee that I've been pretty happy with for about 15 years.  That being said, it could  be tuned up a bit, and the top jaw is a bit out of alignment with the lower due to the hole being drilled at a skewed angle.  It was my first build and I didn't notice till after I had the gun finished, but it doesn't really hurt anything.  But whenever I've had a problem with one of their locks they took care of it quickly or replaced parts free of charge. 

Chambers, RE DAvis, Quality Locks (Mike Rowe) and Tip Curtis offer some other options as well that would be appropriate.


Good luck

Guy

[Dennis Glazener]

My quandary is that while I have a couple of L&R "Hawken" Flintlocks,  I had had broken two frozen springs due to a weakness where the roller is pinned in (the springs did not break, the roller attachment did).  I ended up hunting with a percussion because of it.  I was wondering how the other two work.  The Durs Egg and the Manton.  I built a nice little long rifle for a fellow shooter with the Durs Egg, but the springs were so strong they shattered the flints after one or two shots until I lightened them (I prefer not doing that again)  However that was many years ago, about the time the Durs Egg came out.  I have heard some bad press about the Manton also.  Curious for input.

DP

I have used 3 types of flint L&R locks. Love the looks of them but have had problems with the Manton sparking correctly. The frizzen on two of them was too hard and I had to temper them again but they sparked pretty good after I did that. I don't like having to use real short flints to clear the frizzen on half cock. I also had the main spring break on one of them. (broke another one but it was my fault!)
I am using a Manton on a rifle I am building now and the fit of the parts is very sloppy! Haven't sparked it yet.

The Ashmore I had didn't spark real well but other than that it was a decent lock.

The flint Durs Egg was by far the best of all the L&R's that I have used (2 of them) Not a single complaint on either one of them.

Personally I would sell the Manton and probably use the Durs Egg.
For what its worth,
Dennis

[T*O*F]

For what it's worth, Bob Roller will make a lock based on the L&R Manton castings using his internals.  However, he won't take an existing Manton and rework it.  I tried and tried to get him to rebuild a pair (left and right) of new Manton's that I already have and he wouldn't budge.

[billd]

I have a Queen Anne. It's very reliable and sparks well, but it is slow. It feels like a weak mainspring, but I replaced it and it's still slow.  I also have three Manton's, two are great and one is nothing but trouble. I sent it back and they replaced it, but it's still trouble. The two that work well are about 15 years old. The trouble maker I bought just last year.
Bill

[rich pierce]

I've used the Durs Egg since 1978 and it has been a wonderful sparker.  I believe at that time they offered them as kits and I built it and it came out fine.  30 years, maybe I dis-remember.  I built a fullstock flint Hawken with the L&R Ashmore or whatever they called it around 1982 and it was more persnickety.  Don't have recent data.

[ironwolf]

  Is the 'Ashmore' the same as the 'Late English'?  Was wondering about that one.  I already know I'm going to be using the Egg lock soon, but will send it back if I can't use it.
  Kevin

[J.D.]

It's my understanding that the internals of all L&R locks need to be tempered to 600 degrees, the springs tempered to 750 degrees, and the frizzen tempered at 400 to remove brittleness inherent with L&R's current tempering.

In addition, the sear screw hole on the Manton is cast too large, making the sear excessively sloppy. IMHO, Either welding and drilling the screw hole, or replacing the sear screw with an oversize screw should solve the problem.

I don't have any experience with the Durs Egg, so won't comment.

TOF,
Do you know what Bob Roller gets for his version of the Manton lock? I'm sure that it is a super quality piece...and probably pretty expensive.

Thanks,
J.D.

[California Kid]

How about a Chambers Late Ketland. Look at R. E. Davis as well. I would stay away from L & R.

[P.W.Berkuta]

I have built a .36 cal squirrel rifle with a John Bailes, right hand flint lock, by L&R in 1998 and I love the lock, fast, sparks well, fast (did I already say that ) and reliable one issue is that the parts are too brittle (sear, tumbler, stirrup link). The springs I have no complaint with but I notice that when the lock has been fired a lot and not wiped clean around the frizzen pivot point the frizzen will hang up on the way to full open - the rifle still goes off but Could also be the flint length .

[lew wetzel]

awhile back when i was shopping for a lock.i was at the log cabin and went over a few with ian pratt and dan kindig and it seems the quality in the assembly of the l&r manton is not up to par.if you have gotten one recently i would think it safe to assume it might have issues,but from what i hear from some of the other fellas that have them from years ago,they seem to be alright.i have a l&r ketland lock on a rifle and i bought it last year and it is a great lock.hard to say what the problem at l&r is but the quality on certain locks varies...

[T*O*F]

TOF,
Do you know what Bob Roller gets for his version of the Manton lock? I'm sure that it is a super quality piece...and probably pretty expensive.

JD
$175 sticks in my mind.  He makes his own mainsprings too and they are a little heavy for a lot of guys, but they always fire.  They "snick" twice when you cock them and there is no overtravel on the last notch.

99% of his work goes overseas where they want the best and are willing to pay the price.  He mostly does 4 pin English locks for target shooters.

[Roger Fisher]

I have an L & R durs egg in my smoothy.  I am on the third main spring, 2nd frizzen spring and 2nd lower bridle screw which snapping at start of the threads on the shaft. Understand that there are quite a lot of shots thru her.  I will say that she is a great sparker.  If I remember correctly I seem to recall that at least one hole thru the plate was cockeyed. but useable!  Until I hear better results with them I do not believe I will use another!

[Stophel]

The L&R "Queen Anne" round faced lock works WONDERFULLY....with Siler internals!

I think that L&R tumblers and sears are just not sufficiently hard as they come.  Which I could fix, but what I really don't like about L&R locks is that they just aren't "fitted" at all.  The hole is bored in the plate at a standard size, and the tumbler is simply set in place, as it is cast to "finished" dimensions.  They don't turn them down to fit the hole AT ALL, so unless I buy an "as-cast" plate (which they seem to be happy to sell to you, and I have done a few this way), there's no way I can fit a tumbler to a plate or bridle properly, as they don't give me any extra metal to work with.

I also don't like those miniscule little flys (or is it "flies"....).

I haven't fooled with a "Manton" in a while (got tired of it!).  It will make into a very pretty little lock, but it does certainly have problems.  One of which is the frizzen bouncing back and whacking into the top jaw, leaving a crease in it.

I think the Chambers "Late Ketland" lock might suit pretty well.  It's kinda smallish, so I don't know how well it will fit on your design, but the Manton is small too.

Davis makes the rather larger "Twigg" lock.  You know, I don't know if I've ever seen anyone actually use this lock.  I looked at one at Tip Curtis' one time, and was quite impressed with it.

[Pete G.]

I used the Durs Egg on a 36 cal Southern rifle and found, as did you, that it was a rock crusher. I could get maybe 20 shots out of a flint at best. Modified the frizzen spring by grinding it narrow and solved the problem, until about a year or so later when the spring cracked in the bend. The replacement spring had about the same tension as my modified spring, so now I can get upward to 100 shots from a flint. I suppose L & R recognized the problem and addressed it. It seems that most folks' experience with these locks is that they do require some tinkering, but they do have lock styles that are not available elsewhere.

We've come a long way from when you could get any style lock you wanted as long as you wanted a Siler.

[Dphariss]

I would see if by chance The Rifle Shoppe had a set of late Manton parts in stock.
Or go to Blackleys in England.

This is a Rifle Shoppe recessed breech Manton rifle lock in processing, its now on my 16 bore.


I don't think you can make a decent late English rifle with an L&R.  The "Late English" is way too big and is really just a copy  of an export grade lock really too big even for the slimmer J&S Hawken. What they call a "Manton" is 1780s and has far to wide a tumbler to boot.
Needs to be thinned down. Its is so deep to the inside of the bridle and screws inletting it gets almost to the tang screw on barrels under 1". I think its about .650 from the face of the plate to the head of the tumbler screws.
I just cut one down yesterday so the actual tumbler is about .200", should have measured it before I started but by the length of the screws I took off about .8". I think its still wider than the Manton from TRS IIRC. They are easy to cut down with a lathe since the fly is on the inside. Use carbide cutter.
Aside from this it seems to be a good little lock. Its going on a pistol. Used the percussion version guts and hammer on a pistol some years back and ran into the tang bolt problem.
BTW I ended up making a mainspring and a tumbler for TRS lock, poor castings.

Dan

[northmn]

Sounds like a certain level of dissatisfaction with L&R.  A little tinkering isn't all bad. After doing some shopping I may be stuck with L&R as I shoot left handed (left eye dominant, right handed, decided it was easier to go lefty.) We are after all buying raw materials.  I have to dovetail barrels and that sort of thing.  But I really have strong feelings about lock quality being important for rifle accuracy.  Most barrels today will outshoot the shooter in field conditions.  Locks and trigger pulls are what help us hit.
My guns are English influenced.  I already have a few parts that are close and don't pretend to be able to match an English rifle or shotgun.

DP

[ironwolf]

  If the Chambers 'Late Ketland' had a mainspring stirrup it would be the 'King' of the English style locks for shure. 
  Kevin

[lew wetzel]

i had a beautiful tenn.rifle stock that had all kinds of curl and i ended up selling it because it was pre-inlet for the l&r manton lock....for how much a lock costs you shouldnt have to tinker with it to get it to function properly...i feel the lock is the heart of the rifle and everything else is an extension of it.

[Evil Monkey]

for how much a lock costs you shouldnt have to tinker with it to get it to function properly.

While I fully agree that you shouldn't have to tinker with a lock to get it to function properly, for what we pay (for a Chambers lock) we are getting great value IMO.

[lew wetzel]

thats why chambers are the best ,quality is #1 and thats how you get customer satisfaction!!!

[Tom Cooper]

I have used several L&R Manton/Bailes and have been generally happy with the way they performed.

Without a bit of tinkering I woulden't learn a darn thing about the function and operation of the locks, and as was stated before there are some lock styles you cannot get anyplace else especially if you shoot left handed, like me.

As far as the hardening and tempering I case harden all my locks and parts anyway so its not an issue for me.

[Dphariss]

Nobody makes a best quality type English lock post 1800 that I know of.
Thus if you want such you have to find the castings and go from there.
Very seldom will you find a lock that does not need something. HOWEVER, the last assembled L Siler I bought is near faultless.
100-120 bucks is not much for a lock. I just paid 49.95 for one of those 2 wheel convert to  4 wheel cart things at Costco.
Buy a plastic grill for a late model car, or a head or taillight assembly.
If someone built a first quality lock such as found on a 1815-1820 Manton it SHOULD cost 300-400 bucks.
I have always had good luck with L&Rs but they all need work from 25 years ago to the one I just bought. But they don't cost 300 bucks either.
Go to Blackley's and look at the cost of just the castings for a good late English flintlock.

Dan

[northmn]

Nobody makes a best quality type English lock post 1800 that I know of.
Thus if you want such you have to find the castings and go from there.
Very seldom will you find a lock that does not need something. HOWEVER, the last assembled L Siler I bought is near faultless.
If someone built a first quality lock such as found on a 1815-1820 Manton it SHOULD cost 300-400 bucks.
I have always had good luck with L&Rs but they all need work from 25 years ago to the one I just bought. But they don't cost 300 bucks either.
Go to Blackley's and look at the cost of just the castings for a good late English flintlock.

Dan

That essentially sums it up.  I always tell people that you can tell someones age by the fact that they think $100 is a lot of money.    It takes half that to fill a gas tank. Were I to get the most fault free lock in my experience, it would be a Siler.  the main complaint against the Siler is that it is of early Germanic styling and doesn't ascetically fit many designs.  I look at the locks kind of like a barrel blank.  They are a raw material to be modified if necessary.  Other than the weak design on the frizzen spring, my L&R performs beautifully and is a very pleasurable flinter to shoot.  Were I not so lazy I would make a forged spring to try to solve the problem or else modify it so that the roller is in the frizzen and use a plain spring.  I have done that to Silers and one cheap lock.  The L&R Dur's Egg I tuned was a PITA but worked very well for the individual I made the rifle for.  Since the rifle I am looking at is to be of English influence, I will not be trying to duplicate fine English work.  The locks were the heart, as Lew stated, of finer English guns, but their other features such as lighter barrels were nothing to be sneezed at either.

DP

[Birddog6]

  If the Chambers 'Late Ketland' had a mainspring stirrup it would be the 'King' of the English style locks for shure. 
  Kevin

Why ?  It is a great lock just as it is & you can't see a stirrup from the outside.