Pull lenght ?

[swordmanjohn]

Im new to the world of any kind of gun building and have a question. What is pull lenght? Im ordering a stock replacement for one of my ML,s and the place said that the pull lenght will be left open for adjustment? Does this pertain to how the butt plate fits?  thank you for any help and advice.

[Ed Wenger]

Hey John, welcome to the forum...  Pull length (or Length of Pull, LOP) is the distance from the trigger to the butt plate, generally the center portion of the plate.

[Ky-Flinter]

Hi ya Swordman, welcome to ALR. 

If you have a interest in building traditional longrifles or just enjoy them in general, you have arrived in the right place.  I am but a beginner myself, but can tell you there is a wealth of knowledge here and freely given.

For your question, I'm guessing they are referring to trigger pull length which is measured from the trigger to the butt plate.   As for adjusting this length, shortening is easy, just cut off the amount desired and re-fit the butt plate.  Making it longer will require adding wood.  Hopefully your stock supplier has left the butt a little long.  Good luck.

-Ron

[sz]

Look at this picture.
It's self explanatory.

[long carabine]

Doesn't lop also depend on the drop in the stock. I mean a 14 inch lop with a 2 inch drop, for example,  might not fit me but a 14 inch lop with a 31/2 drop might fit. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Tim

[flintriflesmith]

Doesn't lop also depend on the drop in the stock. I mean a 14 inch lop with a 2 inch drop, for example,  might not fit me but a 14 inch lop with a 31/2 drop might fit. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Tim

Length of pull is just the single measurement from the from trigger (with set triggers) to the back of the butt piece in the deepest part of the arc.

Drop is more complicated because in some references it is measured from bore line (modern guns mostly) and in others from the line of the sights. Drop is also measured to the top of point of the heel of the butt piece AND to the comb where your cheek rests. Some styles of longrifle have a lot of drop to the heel but due to the stock shape not much drop at the comb. How much drop a rifle seems to have when you shoulder it is also effected by how much, if any, cast off it has.

How a rifle "fits" is a combination of pull, drop (at heel and comb), and cast off.

Gary

[Evil Monkey]

Steve, your picture is self explanatory however, it's also incorrect. LOP is measured by drawing a line parallel to the bore then vertical right angle lines at center of butt plate and front center of trigger. A straight line from Trigger to center of butt gives a skewed measurement which will vary with drop at heal.

[Acer Saccharum]

Monkey, how do you know such things, being so far north out in the middle of a great plain, on the edge of the Tundra?

Some of my thoughts on length of pull:

A big man can shoot a gun with a short length of pull.

The Schuetzen guys build their guns with a short pull to get the barrel weight back, so the gun is not so front-heavy. The trigger arm, is also held tight to the body to further stabilize the gun. Set up like this, the shooter is less tired in a fifty shot match than if he had a long pull muzzle-heavy gun.

So what will you use the gun for?

If it's hunting, a long pull can cause problems when you dress up for cold weather. The added thickness of clothing can make the gun difficult to shoulder.

A long pull can make a gun hard to sell, if that's what you have in mind. Once the potential buyer tries to shoulder the gun, and it sticks in his armpit, no sale.

Just because you have long arms, doesn't mean you need long pull gun to go with them.

I go for moderate LOP, in case you missed my drift.

rambling again.

Tom

[490roundball]

Steve, your picture is self explanatory however, it's also incorrect. LOP is measured by drawing a line parallel to the bore then vertical right angle lines at center of butt plate and front center of trigger. A straight line from Trigger to center of butt gives a skewed measurement which will vary with drop at heal.

I have never heard of it put like that,  and have found nothing like that in the gun fitting books or instructions I have, but of course they are for shotguns.  LOP is the distance from the face of the trigger to the center of the buttplate.  I do agree that the length you use for a flintlock may vary with some of the rifles with bigger drops.  No one measurement decides gun fit, in the world of wingshooting, a shotgun is fit with LOP and cast (on or off) and drop (comb and heel) and pitch. For rifles, the mix is less critical because you line up the sights instead of pointing.

Rick

[northmn]

However you measure it, if you are building for yourself, be consistant.  I use from the trigger to the center of the buttplate and have always heard of that used.  One of the complaints heard about double triggers on double barrels is that the pull changes from the front trigger to the back making one barrel harder to hit with. (good built in excuse).  Acer is correct about too long a pull on sale as my brother in law has built to 15 1/4 inch pulls, which most cannot handle.
 Pull is one issue of gun fit and may or may not be consistant with styles.  Drop at the comb is also a consideration as well as cast off.  Again style may dictate.  J. Dickert used over 2 inch wide buttplates which may make a larger cast off desirable.  A Bedford county rifle may not need any.  Curved stocks also may need more drop as the comb raises more than straighter ones.  There was discussion on this in the thread concerning the Tulle Project.  The best way at first, to determine what you like is to find an existing gun with a fit you like, and match its measurements.  Factory guns have been made for Joe Average for years. 

DP

[sz]

Sorry Evil Monkey, but with all respects,  L.O.P. has nothing to do with the line of sight or the bore center line
It's only the distance of center of trigger to center of butt plate.
Drop at comb, drop at heel, drop at toe, cast off, and pitch all relate to the line of sight, but not L.O.P.

[Elnathan]

What Cody is saying is that the line from the center of the of the buttplate to the trigger is measured parallel to the line of the bore. In other words, the line in the picture should start at the middle of the buttplate and end underneath the trigger. Measured that way, LOP is independent of drop.

[Roger Fisher]

13 1/2 inches and no more!!!

 For a midget go less

[James Rogers]

What Cody is saying is that the line from the center of the of the buttplate to the trigger is measured parallel to the line of the bore. In other words, the line in the picture should start at the middle of the buttplate and end underneath the trigger. Measured that way, LOP is independent of drop.

Never heard of that. May be Ok in theory but no measurement is independent of the others in gun fit. Even changing grip angle, width, etc and type of trigger has an effect on pull.     

[J.D.]

13 1/2 inches and no more!!!

 For a midget go less

swordmanjohn,
Roger's suggested LOP of 13 1/2 inches sounds pretty short to most people,  but have you ever shot an M1 Garand or an M14 rifle? They have a 13 inch LOP and no one that I know of has ever complained that the LOP is  too short. Shorter is better, to a point.

IMHO, 13 1/2" LOP is about right for most folks.

[Ken G]

Now I'm confused.      Happens a lot it seems. 

Is length of pull measured straight from trigger to center of buttplate or trigger to buttplate parallel to the bore? 

Red or Blue?

[FlintRock Rob]

The blue line, at least that's what's shown in "Recreating The American Longrifle" by Buchele, Shumway, & Alexander (pg 12,) and also in "Recreating The Double Barrel Muzzleloading Shotgun" by Brockway (pg 97.) Also stated the same in the intro to RCA-1.

[James Rogers]

The blue line.. according to every professional stock fitter I know.
I think evil monkey was saying to take that red line down below the gun to keep in line with the bore if I am not mistaken.

[Evil Monkey]

What i was describing was the red line. This was taken from Michael Yardley's "Gunfitting, the quest for perfection" and from WW Greener's "The gun and it's development". So, I went back to those books for confirmation and it appears that someone (I think it was Steve Zihn) took my books and replaced them with falsified copies showing LOP measured in the same fashion as indicated by the blue line. In view of this covert editing, I find myself in a position in which I will have to concede that I was wro......uh, wro.........hmmmmm, that my previous post is no longer valid  . Please disregard my previous post.

[sz]

Sneeky,   aint I?
 

[Daryl]

Cody - I agree that your "Red" measurement system should be the only system due to a couple resaons.  Most people who shoot a rifle with a lot of drop at the heel and toe think they need 14" (or more) of pull in order to shoot the rifle comfortably, then inocently and mistakenly think this applies to every rifle they come across.  Problem being that the straighter the stock, the shorter 'pull' one 'needs'.  Most people don't understand this.

 This is why you get guys thinking they need 14 1/2", I these are guys who have a 30" arm, short necks and measure in the 'short' range for height. ('short range' is anything in the 5' whatever range BTW - yes I'm opinionated - but do it honestly )

 Never fails that someone at some time, on about any gun forum there is eventually posts a thread asking "What's your length of pull?"  This one  s really funny in the responses due to the '@#$$%&* match' that invariably results. I've seen guys edit their responses every time someone lists a longer length of pull than what they originally posted.

 As I said, length of pull desired by an individual varies with the shape of the stock - if measured from the trigger to centre of the butt ie: blue line, but varies little when measured trigger to centre of the butt on the line of the bore - ie: red line.

 One other aspect of length of pull is that an experienced shot can use a variety of lengths of pull equally well in accuracy, but someone who 'needs' a certain length of pull usually is quite easily beaten at the game and actually needs a LOT more practise to become proficient.

 So, what's my length of pull? -  it's 26" to 29" depending on the 'stick' I'm shooting,  and then it varries from 29" to 32" - whatever the compound bow demands. Oops, rifles - that would be from about 13" to 15" depending on drop and whatever the rifle happens to have.

 It is easy to shoot a stock that is shorter than you'd prefer, but difficult to shoot a stock that's too long.

[wireman]

Well i always put yardstick up to my shoulder and measure to my trigger finger where it feels good to me and that what i make it.I just measured my southern mountain rifle and it 131/2 and i must have big nose because if i don't move my thumb over i get red nose

[Brian]

Evil Monkey knows all - sees all!   

Actually, he is right - by one school of thought.  Some do measure it the way he said.

LOP can be a pain in the lower regions!  I never seem to get it right.  The drop on the stock, the length of one's neck, arm length, the light of the moon!  I wish I knew for sure.  Some feel "right", and some don't.

I have to find, buy, or make one of those fancy adjustable "try stocks".  Maybe then I'll be able to figure it out.

[swordmanjohn]

I always thought that if your arms were long, you needed a longer lop? Im 6'3" which is 75 inches but my reach is 78"...... 6'6" reach on a 6'3" shooter but from what im hearing it doesnt matter?

[ironwolf]

  The shortest pull you can stand will bring the C.O.G. closer to your body.

  KW