antique gun collecting

[mr. no gold]

A very fine N. Beyer is up for sale on Guns International. As you might expect the 40K plus price is too much for most budgets (certainly mine), but one can look...and drool. For the record, I have no connection to GI or to the seller. Only an admiring bystander.
Dick

[Buck]

Dick,

I owned that rifle for about 5 years, one of the best Beyer rifles out there in regards to art work. If anyone or knows anyone interested in buying it send me a pm or email so I can give the true description of whats been done to it. 

Buck

[mr. no gold]

Noel, is that the Beyer you got from Joe? I recall seeing that once and I would have to say that it probably isn't one of the best Beyer rifles. I think that it is the best one out there. Hard to beat it in any department!
Dick

[Buck]

Dick,

Yes - that’s the one. I sold it about 3 to 4 years ago, the lock that’s on there now wasn’t the same lock that was on it when I sold it. The original lock plate was still on the rifle, but had been through the percussion - flint re-conversion process. Artistically it’s spectacular, it has everything you want on a Beyer. It was shortened substantially in its working life, I believe about 13”, so the barrel and stock were stretched (something Joe never hid from anyone) but there were a couple of other procedures that occurred that none of us knew about. I have some better photos somewhere, if I can find them I’ll post them tomorrow.

Buck

[WadePatton]

Save some folks a click or two, for us onlookers.

https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/rifles/antique-rifles-1500-1850/nicholas-beyer-40-boyer-41-long-rifle.cfm?gun_id=101469424

[Buck]

Dick,

The remaining photos I have of this rifle





upload images

The rifle really had some interesting details, notice the tang. Example, the leaf at the top of the tang carving where the beaver tail and opera surround (thumb inlay) meet is raised where the one below is incised. The only detail that was below the benchmark on this rifle was the carving beneath the cheek rest which is incised - aside from that, the artwork (and the quantity thereof) was excellent. I had put together a 15 - 20 bullet-point write up - phasing / level of quality that described the gambit of his work. This rifle is missing only 2 of those details - the carving which is incised below the cheek rest and the front end which is raised on 2 Kindig Rifles 96 & 97. There are a couple of factors from memory that identify his top work and also separates his work from Becks. In the Beaver Tails behind the lock and lock plate, there are 3 gouges - they are typically present on the most elaborate rifles. Where on the Beck there are 2 (with 2 additional smaller gouges behind the larger) - review the Lion Rifle (#101). Another identifying trait of his best work are the inlays at the wrist and forward the lock and lock plates - these are always present, typically numbering 5 with the inclusion of the thumb inlay. 

Buck   

[mr. no gold]

Thanks for the 'rest of the story' on this fine Beyer, Buck! Despite the work done, it is still a screamer. Your highly detailed assessment of the gun and its attributes
is equally impressive. To sell one like this, you must have had your eye on something even better. This Beyer is a hard act to follow. I can't imagine that it will stay on the market too long.
Dick

[Tim Crosby]

 You cannot beat the education you can get here on the ALR, another Great example. Folks who don't get to see originals get  a chance here and you can't beat the price of admission.

  Tim C.

PS: FWIW; To my way of thinking Contemporary rifles are also originals. Better than "original" "antique' could be used but when does an original become and antique? TC

[jdm]

Noel. I remember when you got the Beyer. You've had a lot of great guns, This is one you should of kept. I wish I'd hung on to the fowler  I got from you.   Thanks for sharing the pictures and your thoughts.  Jim

[Buck]

Dick,

I agree it’s a great gun - I enjoyed the rifle for the time I had it, the  Angstat Swivel moved into its position on the wall. I have no regrets.

Tim,

I spent a lot of time studying his work. Beyers body of work / output of product was pretty amazing. The man was a machine, there was some discussion years ago where we tried to project the duration of a build and what was believed to be a yearly output. It focused on the Armstrong shop, I think I remember 27 rifles was what someone projected - that was with apprentices and another manufacturing hardware. Afterwards we discussed Beyer and his output was double or slightly a little more. This was pretty significant, some thought this was a sign of his mental instability which was prevalent in his final years. A workaholic who died destitute, broke and alone.

Buck

[Buck]

Jim - when I saw the pictures yesterday I felt the same, I didn’t regret selling it - but if I knew they were going to “modify” it more I would have kept it. I didn’t recognize it till I came to the Dean catalog button photo. There was a Huntingdon Museum book and a photo of Dean in his study looking at a Lehigh rifle. There was a circular rack next to him with 20 or so rifles in it, right next to his right knee was that Beyer in the rack. I suppose the photo was disposed of along with the other Dean information I chased down to display with it.

Buck

[WESTbury]

Dick,

Yes - that’s the one. I sold it about 3 to 4 years ago, the lock that’s on there now wasn’t the same lock that was on it when I sold it. The original lock plate was still on the rifle, but had been through the percussion - flint re-conversion process.
Buck

Buck, do you have a photo showing the original lockplate? My question in this regard, is to whether or not, the reconversion back to flint of the original lock was so objectionable, that a subsequent owner of the rifle felt the need to replace it.

For the record, I have no intention of purchasing any rifle that is priced higher than our first house.  Kent

[Buck]

Kent - I do not. There was a lot of back and forth with the buyer personally and here on the forum. He managed to ruffle a few feathers with his approach. I’ll say this, apparently there was more restoration that had taken place than myself or the individual that I acquired the rifle from had knowledge of.

Buck

[WESTbury]

Buck,   Thanks for the reply.

Our gun collecting hobby and brotherhood & sisterhood, should be enjoyable. I've met and talked with a few thousand collectors over the past 50 years and for some reason it is always the very few "Bozos" I have some of the most vivid memories of.

Kent

[Eric Kettenburg]

...I suppose the photo was disposed of along with the other Dean information I chased down to display with it.

It's very interesting - VERY - to chase down old auction catalogs with 'kentucky' collections of the early 20th century through the 1950s/1960s.  VERY eye opening.

If you engage in this habit, it will come back to bite you on the *** because you will become unbelievably cynical in terms of viewing a large proportion of these antiques without a jaundiced eye.  No different than any other antique field nowadays, I guess.

[Eric Kettenburg]

Well I am sure that I am a bit outside the norm - I don't know which 'side' of center I would be considered - but I look at pretty much all of them as "frankenguns" at this point.  And that's sad to my way of thinking, but outside of a spotty few here or there, this is largely true regardless of whether you want to beat me senseless for saying it or not.

On the flip side, I think one does legitimately have to realize that these things are not lamps, or a sideboard, or something that was used in a stationary manner inside a home.  They're guns - they were used outdoors, in various weather, and nobody thought of them as holy grail items in the same way that when I go buy a little .22 to whack some squirrels or whatever, I don't think it's going to be something cherished 200 years from now.  So they were by and large seriously used, and they suffered losses and wear and all that stuff.  I think I'll stop now.  For the moment.

And to stay on topic this a truly great Beyer rifle, but already we can see debatable topics arising such as the noted reconversion, or the completely different lock replacement, or as Buck mentioned secondary work which did not immediately manifest as being present until *after* the purchase etc.

[JV Puleo]

My observation, in more than 50 years of exposure to antique arms is that American Longrifles are the most "mucked with" of any antique firearms. 30 years ago a good friend and long time collector of Federal period swords wanted to find one long rifle for his collection...even then he was skeptical of nearly all of them. He did buy one, oddly enough a Nicholas Beyer, that aside from it's very professional conversion to percussion is largely untouched. But, he bought it from an old friend who had owned it since the late 1930s. His son now has it and there is no way either of them would countenance reconversion. I freely admit that the standard of workmanship is very high...so much so that even if I had the resources to buy one I probably wouldn't unless I knew its provenance back to at least before WWII.

I'm reminded of a story the late Donald Andreason told me...about an over-under rifle that was the KRA "rifle of the year". Don noted that the last time he's seen that rifle it was a broken buttstock on ................'s bench.

[AZshot]

All I know is when I read the first post about "I'm going to restock this..." my jaw dropped.  I figure with only 3 main parts, lock, stock, and barrel, you would never touch any of those.  Yes, a hammer is a tool, and you know the story about "this is the same hammer my great grandfather used!  The handle was replaced only 3 times, and the head twice, but it's the same hammer!"

[mr. no gold]

Seems to me that Ky Rifles collectors are pretty forgiving in their collecting standards. Recall that in a recent auction, a magnificent Ferree rifle gaveled down at 55K; a rifle that had similar restoration as this Beyer. Another Beyer once upon a time thought to be the best one out there was a butt stock. It had barrel and forearm replaced, and probably more. It sold for 45K thus making the subject rifle almost a bargain. Generally collectors want a good, but abused gun to be retuned to the reasonable appearance that it should have. This forbearance ends when it comes to carving, inlays, etc, when there were none originally. Same for engraving signatures on barrels. Another example is the great Newcomer rifle with a patchbox that almost certainly had to be added later. True or not this aspect has dogged this truly fine colonial Kentucky up to this day.
Most Kentucky collectors want to retain all parts that can be restored, that includes shattered wood, hashed up locks and patch boxes. Sometimes though you just have to make a decision that will not be accepted by all. Point here I guess is that if you find a good gun but are disturbed by some work done on it, go find another
one! It isn't always that easy.
My philosophy pretty much is that a good rifle in percussion, but once flint has almost always had the barrel cut back. Far too many people immediately have the gun changed back to flint. That leaves you with a flint gun that has a short barrel, a sure sign of reconversion. So now you need to decide if you lengthen the gun back out to what it was originally. And so it goes. I have found that it is best to keep the gun for awhile and consider all the options on any restoration and then decide what is best for the rifle. Done ramblin now.
Dick

[AZshot]

A a longtime antiques collector, in many fields of Early American items, I can say I never buy items that have been "touched up....improved....restored...." except for at a fraction of the cost of an original.  That, to me, is the point of collecting - to see what an original looked like, how it was formed, carved, finished, etc. 

This is starting to feel like the zany Muscle Car auctions like Mecum, where a body shop takes grandma's white Pontiac Tempest with a straight 6 engine, and convert it to a 400 V8, paint it red, add custom features, and counterfeit the data plate so it all matches. Then some millionaire bids it up to $80,000 with a lot of back slapping by the auctioneers.  Sorry, I'm not at all interested in buying art, recreated pieces, nor competing with wealthy collectors with money to burn. Too risky with this stuff. 

[Eric Kettenburg]

I have found that it is best to keep the gun for awhile and consider all the options on any restoration and then decide what is best for the rifle.

Exactly!  Smart approach.

[Buck]

All,

This thread really blew up since I last responded. Definitely some valid points from everyone, I think for those of us who are deeply involved in the Kentucky Rifle theater can all agree that the Sirkin debacle is still certainly fresh in our memories. I think all of us can agree it was an unfortunate circumstance, a flooded market - a flooded market full of product that was sold under false pretense.

I've had the fortune of owning some great guns, several untouched and several restored to varying degrees. Dick stated some great points as did Eric and John. To Johns point it's foolish to think any gun is totally original, I think Colts (being a mass produced arm) would be much easier to restore due to availability of parts as they were a "patterned arm".

To Eric's point (and John's) the pioneer per say didn't have the luxury of climate control, as we all know the rifle was a utilitarian item that provided meals as well as self defense and or battle with the Islanders from across the pond or the indigenous faction that was a constant danger in that time period. That said, the probability that there's a high percentage of Kentucky's that exhibit "like it just left the makers bench" condition is highly unlikely. Eric's sound advice is leave it alone - don't do anything to them you'll need to make excuses for later.

I agree with Dick - know what your buying. Ask questions, take advice find someone to show you the ins and outs.

Jim also gives some sound advise as well.

If anyone remembers Hobie Dog and the $40K rifle comments - The Beyer left my care and went to him.

Buck 

[Steve Collward]

Buck,
  What was the "Sirkin debacle..."?

[Eric Kettenburg]

Dr. Sirkin was a very nice man who loved kentuckies but was relatively uneducated as to what he was collecting.  He apparently knew what he liked and bought what he liked, and amassed a fairly huge collection.  Unfortunately, MANY (if not most) of his pieces were blatantly misrepresented to him when he acquired them and when the collection was auctioned it became quite clear that the poor guy had essentially been a 'mark' for people trying to move heavily worked-over "all original!" guns that other, more cautious buyers would have passed up.

[WESTbury]

Buck,
  What was the "Sirkin debacle..."?

Steve---You can view many of these pieces in the James Julia March and October 2014 auction catalogs on line at Morphy Auctions under the James Julia Past Auctions drop down menu.

Kent