Trigger/lock Problem

[Molly]

Pictured are the lock and trigger from an original rifle, attributed to Ambrose Lawing.  When purchased the seller indicated it had been routinely fired in the very distant past and with that we took it that it would function and was safe to shoot.  I had a gunsmith look at the barrel, drum, nipple and he saw no problems.  Shootable or not we wanted the rifle and the price was reasonable. This is NOT about a sellers representation.  Actually I never planned to shoot it so it did not matter.  More recently the notion of smoking up the range with an original became more appealing so why not do it.  Squib load at first and then with maybe 15 grains of bp.  But the problem is that the hammer will not stay retracted when the lock is in the gun.  Taking it out it is possible that the sear will contact the tumbler and then can be "snapped".

So we concluded the problem is in the trigger, not the lock.  Hubby has taken the trigger out and a photo is shown.  There are at least two problems we can se.  The "wire" which is under the mainspring loops at the front but it is way too long to catch in the notch on the front trigger.  Secondly, the rear trigger lever is worn badly and will just barely catch under the notch on the front trigger.

Never have seen one like this but then we are NOT much into such things.  Any suggestions on what to do OR who might be able to fix it?  Also what might the possibility be of finding a total replacement for the trigger??  The top photo shows the trigger configufred in the "firing" position.  The bottom is not set that way.

MAS

[smallpatch]

That is a single lever trigger.  It must be set before the lock will cock.
That trigger return spring appears to be installed wrong, or broken, and may be contacting the sear as well.  That should be a pretty easy fix.

[Hungry Horse]

Dane’s right on all accounts. The stirrup on the tumbler appears to be a recent replacement, and could cause trouble as well.

  Hungry Horse

[Molly]

Easy for you but we have 8 thumbs and missing one finger on each hand.  So any suggestions on who can do it?

[OldMtnMan]

Almost anyone with less thumbs.

[Bob Roller]

Easy for you but we have 8 thumbs and missing one finger on each hand.  So any suggestions on who can do it?

Loosen the screw that holds the rear trigger mainspring and move the front trigger control spring
back under the front trigger where it belongs.I will not comment on the quality of the lock and trigger.
Bob Roller

[Molly]

Now, that sounds like a fix we can do...if that's all there is to it.  So Mr. Roller, are you saying this is a "superior grade rig?

Guess it was not all that unusual for 1850 in the mountains of TN.

Really appreciate the guidance.  Yes the stirrup has to be a replacement.

MAS

[Bob Roller]

Now, that sounds like a fix we can do...if that's all there is to it.  So Mr. Roller, are you saying this is a "superior grade rig?

Guess it was not all that unusual for 1850 in the mountains of TN.

Really appreciate the guidance.  Yes the stirrup has to be a replacement.

MAS

Molly,
Very representative of the time frame you mentioned as well as the location.
My maternal grandfather. C.M.Taylor  owned a general store for a while in Roane
county WV and said there was a barrel full of gun locks that sold for less than 50 cents
each.C.M.Taylor 17 December 1872-28 November 1972,His great grandson;s 2nd birthday,
None of these rifles had high quality parts and it is unfair to compare this class of work
to what came off a London lock filers bench in 1872.
Bob Roller

[Molly]

FIXED!!!

Mr. Roller:  Your directions were spot on.  It works now but there is still one need IMO.  The length of "wire" spring is held firmly in place by the pressure put on it by the back end of the mainspring,  There is actually a small "notch" at that point for the wire to go under.  HOWEVER, repeated use causes it to slip forward and eventually it will not work again.  I think the final solution is to replace the length of wire spring with a new one and put a 90 degree upward bend just at the point where it comes out of the back end of the mainspring.  Should be easy even with 8 thumbs.  Thanks again.  Just another benefit of the forum

MAS

PS:  Hubby did the work.  I just told him how to do it!

[Daryl]

Of course, Molly.

[flinchrocket]

It looks like when you pull the front trigger it would have a tendency to pull the spring forward and allows it to come out of its notch in the trigger.

[Molly]

Yes, that's what is going to happen unless....

Unless the wire spring is replaced and the end which goes under the mainspring at the rear is bent upward 90 degrees which would stop the forward "slide/skid" of the wire.

Pictures to follow once I get some wire to make the new spring.

[Bob Roller]

I would think if the trigger was adjusted for a light touch there wouldn.t be
enough movement to do anything to the spring.
Bob Roller

[Molly]

Morning Mr. Roller.  Yes, in theory that would seem to be correct however the firing trigger is way to light for us to the point it borders on not being safe.  I prefer to firm it up a bit and in doing so I think it will work loose over time.

Would you not thing creating a wire spring bent as shown which extends out from under the back of the mainspring would stop the movement?

[smallpatch]

If the mainspring is snug, I don’t see any way that return spring moves. When the front trigger is pulled, the spring will actually move down, not forward.  Because of the bend, it should have plenty of room.
You may be over thinking this.

[flinchrocket]

If I am wrong it won't be the first time. However, I think if you put that spring in with a hook on the back to prevent it from going forward it will restrict the movement of the trigger.
That notch in the trigger that holds the spring travels in an arc around the pin. No matter how minute,it has to go forward in that arc.

[smallpatch]

Flinch,
I agree, the trigger WILL move forward...... very slightly. BUT, the bend in that spring will move than allow that movement.
Molly, before we reinvent the wheel, lock that mainspring down and function fire that trigger 40 or 50times.  I’ll bet it works just fine.

[Molly]

This is for all of us who like to overthink and re-engineer things.


Below is a poor drawing of the rear of the lock mainspring.  There is a small "notch" on the right side.  The flat bottom of the spring rests on the upper surface of the lock plate.  The "spring" that was in the lock was really not a spring IMO but simply a retaining clip.  No matter how tight you cranked down on the screw holding the mainspring spring in place it would not put sufficient pressure on the wire "spring" to keep it from slipping because the wire was too small of a diameter.

You could have used a larger gauge wire I suppose but it still would have been a replacement, aka "re-engineered".  That wire really does not need to move at all if is is the right length and size at the loop, it just needs to fill the notch in the front trigger and keep it in place when setting the rear trigger.

So, using a small length of .055 piano wire we put the hook loop in the front, measured for the correct length and then put the 90 degree upward bend at the rear.  FIXED and ready to shoot.





Re-engineering is FUN!

[Mike_StL]

The spring originally would have been a flat spring that would not have moved.  Your round spring is a replacement.  Make the bend to keep it in place.

[Molly]

Hubby said he did not think the wire was original.  Additionally, there are other indications that other parts have gotten some attention as they show evidence of filing.  The replacement wire is good, the bend is in place and it works like a charm.  Many thanks to all who provided guidance.

[Not English]

I've nothing to add other than I've always admired Ambrose Lawing Rifles. I've been following this thread because I've no experience with single set triggers. I'm aware of them but have no experience with the workings.

[Molly]

Not sure I see the advantage.  Off the top it seems like something I would not want but then for hunting it may be better.  You can set the rear trigger and leave the hammer down, retracting it only when you have your game in sight so the rifle is ready to fire.  Don't seem like the steps are different it's just the sequence.

[OldMtnMan]

The problem I have with double set triggers on a hunting rifle is they're too sensitive on a lot of hunting situations. Like no time to take off your gloves when having to make a quick shot. Too much adrenalin and firing the gun when you don't want to.

I prefer a single trigger for hunting and a set trigger for target shooting. I see no disadvantage for a single trigger for hunting but do with set triggers. IMHO

[Daryl]

The only rifle I used for hunting with set triggers, I adjusted the set trigger for as hard a pull as possible
and still remain crisp.

My real hunting rifle, the .69, has a single standard trigger, that "pulls" just under 3 pounds.  Taylor's
Lang rifle has a single set trigger. I can "see" that on a hunting rifle, if pinned high enough to give a
3 pound pull, unset.

Best of both worlds.

[Ross Dillion]

Go to the tutorial page here and look up Ken Guys’ post on making single phase set triggers. It’ll explain the workings of this better than I can. You shouldn’t have to set the trigger before cocking the rifle if everything is set up correctly. I’ve made a few of these and it’s really not that difficult. 😁