Barrel Steels-AISI 12L14 vrs AISI 1137

[canadianml1]

If there are any metallurgists out there, professional or otherwise,   I would appreciate their comments on the relative advantages of these two steels for ML gun barrels. I know that 12L14 is leaded and therefore free machining with a yield strength of about 60 ksi  and 1137 about 50 ksi. When it comes to the ultimate stress 1137 is better and is more ductile than 12L14. But surely both steels are far and away superior to what was used for most ML even after puddled iron was commonly available.

[rich pierce]

Please search “barrel steel” or one of the steel types using the search tool. There have been hundreds of such discussions.

https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?action=search2

https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?action=search2


So far as I know there are no new findings, just interpretations of suitability of either for ML barrels. Wait- in a recent 2020 Muzzle Blasts the Bevel Brothers tried to blow up some barrels. To do it required one ball seated on the powder charge and another short started. Plus making the barrel thin.

[canadianml1]

I found no discussion of wrought iron and puddled iron properties in the links. This is one of the comparisons I was pursuing.

[Bob Roller]

I found no discussion of wrought iron and puddled iron properties in the links. This is one of the comparisons I was pursuing.

I know of no metallurgist that will recommend 12L14 for any kind of a gun barrel and to me
these barn yard tests are proof that whatever was being tested didn't blow up and should not
be relied on.I talked to a Green Mountain barrel representative years ago when this barrel steel
controversy popped up and was told they used 1137M and the "M"meant modified for low pressure
gun barrels.A steel company metallurgist told me 1137 could be modified on large order request
for truck axles and any number of other uses.I no longer shoot any black powder guns but if I were
going to I would use a barrel from Jim McLemore who makes his from certified gun barrel steel such
as used in the 50 caliber BMG.I THINK the # is 4350.
I don't think this on going controversy will ever be settled but my preferences go to the idea of gun
barrels made from materials intended for such use and not intended for screws and bolts.
Bob Roller

[bob in the woods]

This is one of those topics which comes up over and over again, for decades .  One thing I would like discussed concerns wrought iron being desired for it's " dead " property ie it isn't supposed to be prone to vibrating like steel barrels. I have been told that this makes it much more conducive to maintaining excellent accuracy with a wide range of powder charges

[rich pierce]

I wish the moderators would lock this thread.  Adequate search instructions were given and the topic doesn't need to be re-bloviated.

Hasn’t gone off the rails yet, but based on past experience....... we will see how it goes this time.

[Mike Brooks]

I like this conversation.

[Elnathan]

Well, I am very far from being a metallurgists of any kind, but since it was I that introduced the topic in another thread, I'll reply to the best of my knowledge:

The data I was referring to in the other post came from one of James Kelly's articles in the Buckskin Report, which Dan Phariss scanned and from whose photobucket I stole it some time back. It gives the Izod impact test results for bushelled (recycled scrap melted together) wrought iron as 58.5 ft-lbs, and 1137 as 47 ft-lbs. Unfortunately, the impact test values for cold-drawn 12L14 are from a different impact test - the Charpy test (14 ft-lbs longitudinal, <5 fts-lbs transverse) - and while according to the interwebz one can just multiply the Izod by 2.738223 to get the equivalent Charpy figure, I'm pretty skeptical that it is that simple....particularly since there is more than one kind of Charpy test! I did go look at a couple graphs comparing Izod to Charpy based on testing done in the mid-20th century, and while it differs depending on the type of notch used in the test, it does look like an equivalent Izod on that sample of 12L14 could not possibly be higher than the low 40s (assuming V-notch Charpy test and a result well over to one side of the bell curve) and is much more likely to be around 20 ft-lbs.

Again, there are some pretty severe limitations on that data, and I think that the 1137 and 12l14 used for gun barrels is likely stronger than the samples tested (1137MOD because it is specially formulated for gunbarrels, the 12L14 because is stress-relieved instead of being merely cold-drawn). However, it sure looks to me like the assumption that any modern steel is automatically superior to the the old wrought iron is rather questionable.

As for the relative strength of 1137MOD and 12L14 - even run of the mill 1137 has only one-half to one third of of the sulfur content, no added phosphorous beyond the max allowed under AISI specs (.04% or less, versus .04-.09 for 12L14), and no lead whatsoever, and this stuff is specially smelted, heat treated, and inspected with gun barrels in mind. We can (and have!) argued till our faces are blue over whether 12L14 is strong enough to be safe, but I don't think that anyone could seriously argue that 1137MOD isn't strongER than 12L14. If you want professional metallurgists opinions - the fact that one is rated is being produced for gun barrels and one is not is a pretty definitive opinion.

[Elnathan]

Incidentally, back in the day there were multiple grades of wrought iron used in gun barrels. Robert Held's Age of Firearms quotes an original source listing five grades of iron, IIRC, of which only the three better grades went into gun barrels - the two worst grades, sham skelp and sham @!*% skelp, no self-respecting smith would use, though Held suggests that some ended up in trade guns. The occasional reference to "best iron" on trade lists probably indicates better-than-average material in the barrel.

[Acer Saccharum]

Is it Groundhog Day?

[canadianml1]

Kinda sorry I asked!

[jerrywh]

The omly reason I like 1137 is it is better for doing gold work on because if you make teeth on it for overlaying gold the teeth will hold up better.   


belle meade country club

[davec2]

Acer,

Your comment made me laugh out loud!!!!   Very good 😉..... and thanks.

And I’m with Mike on this topic. I enjoy these conversations. No need to lock the thread. Those that are tired of the topic don’t need to open and read any new posts about how their 12L14 barrels are going to blow up and “shoot your eye out !”. Besides, if this didn’t come up, we wouldn’t get hilarious comments like Acer’s. 😊

[smart dog]

Hi,
Jerry, I saw that barrel and thought Boutet has come back to life!  Wow.  I recall that something like 10% of barrels failed proof charges in the London or Tower proof houses.  I cannot find the reference or exact figures at the moment but it illustrates that the risk of welded wrought iron barrels failing was very real in the 18th and 19th centuries and they had a sense of the actual risk.  Hence, they were often made with heavy breeches.  For example, the barrel wall thickness on a Brown Bess musket was 3/8" at the breech.  I am not aware of any similar data for modern muzzleloader barrels. Has any credible group or person tabulated data on barrel failures?

dave   

[James Wilson Everett]

Guys,

Wrought Iron Bar ASTM A189
Ultimate Tensile Strength  48,000 to 54,000 psi
Yield Strength    30,000 to 32,000 psi
Elongation  25%
Reduction in area  40%
High corrosion, fatigue, fracture, and shock resistance


12L14 leaded steel  ASTM A108  A29
Ultimate Tensile Strength  78,000 psi
Yield Strength    60,000 psi
Elongation  10%
Reduction in area  35%
Low corrosion resistance

The range shown for the strengths of wrought iron account for the difference when tested "with the grain" or "across the grain".  Wrought iron is much less strong than 12L14 but much more ductile, and very importantly has good fracture and shock resistance.  What is more apparent with a real wrought iron barrel is its quite amazing resistance to corrosion.  12L14 rusts in a blink of you eye while wrought iron likes water!

The failures of wrought iron barrels was mainly due to a poor fusion of weld seams.  I once performed an industrial x-ray of an 18th c. pistol barrel - the weld was very apparent and would never pass a modern QA inspection due to poor fusion.  Remington solved this problem in the mid-19th c. by producing forged wrought iron barrels with no weld seam by the rolling process.

Jim

[Mike Brooks]

Hi,
Jerry, I saw that barrel and thought Boutet has come back to life!  Wow.  I recall that something like 10% of barrels failed proof charges in the London or Tower proof houses.  I cannot find the reference or exact figures at the moment but it illustrates that the risk of welded wrought iron barrels failing was very real in the 18th and 19th centuries and they had a sense of the actual risk.  Hence, they were often made with heavy breeches.  For example, the barrel wall thickness on a Brown Bess musket was 3/8" at the breech.  I am not aware of any similar data for modern muzzleloader barrels. Has any credible group or person tabulated data on barrel failures?

dave

French trade gun barrels were noted for blowing up. The indians were complaining about it quite a bit. They were evidently not even proofing early on for the trade gun trade. When they started proofing large percentages were blowing, something like 40-50%. One batch nothing passed proof! This is probably why French trade gun barrels have larger breeches than English trade gun barrels. The french also allowed barrels that didn't pass proof to be brazed and reproofed, if it passed they used it. I have come across several brazed repairs on old barrels. Didn't seem to be a big deal back in the day.   I think this was all covered in  Kevin Gladyz book on french trade guns. I'll have to see if I can find my book again....

[Hungry Horse]

 I’ll be the first to admit my brain isn’t big enough to sort out all this gun barrel steel hog wash. I shoot muzzleloaders because I love to experience the feel of the past. Back in the muzzleloading era they didn’t blow up enormous numbers of guns because in spite of the often poor quality of the wrought iron barrels, and a general lack of formal education, they for the most part were smart enough not to overload their guns. Heck, if you keep the load light enough, and don’t use a hammer, and a steel range rod to load it, you could probably get away with a barrel made of gas pipe. So basically what I’m saying is this is not a barrel steel problem.

  Hungry Horse

[bob in the woods]

I’ll be the first to admit my brain isn’t big enough to sort out all this gun barrel steel hog wash. I shoot muzzleloaders because I love to experience the feel of the past. Back in the muzzleloading era they didn’t blow up enormous numbers of guns because in spite of the often poor quality of the wrought iron barrels, and a general lack of formal education, they for the most part were smart enough not to overload their guns. Heck, if you keep the load light enough, and don’t use a hammer, and a steel range rod to load it, you could probably get away with a barrel made of gas pipe. So basically what I’m saying is this is not a barrel steel problem.

  Hungry Horse

    This could be the post that sparks the storm and bring on the locking down of the topic !! 
              I'm tempted....but no,  I won't take the bait 

Regarding the wonderfully informative post by JWE ,   I'm thinking that wrought iron's resistance to water is why we still see it being reclaimed from many old bridges ?  The supply that I have apparently came from an old early 19th C bridge.

[WadePatton]

Our barrel makers aren't going to change their production materials because of another discussion anywhere. Most M/L barrels are made of 12L14 these days as I see it.  If you want different, you have to find those makers who are using different metals.

Ain't nothing we can say about modern metals metallurgy that we haven't beaten to death before. And the times before that.

[rich pierce]

I am usually not moved when it’s stated that metallurgists don’t consider a particular steel to be a barrel steel. It is extremely likely they are thinking of center fire guns and have much more limited experience and knowledge of muzzleloaders.

[JTR]

Please, not a re-re-re-rehash of this tired old topic!

If you don't like 12L14 barrels, don't use them. Simple as that.

You're more likely to be killed or injured while changing a light bulb in a lamp, than you are by shooting a 12L14 barrel.

John

[jerrywh]

According to all the books I have on English trade guns they were proofed pretty good and were very safe to shoot as exported but I have only studied the Hudson bay trade guns not any of the French.
  The info I got on Indians blowing up the Hudson Bay guns is from abuse.  Indians hunting game on horseback would just pour some gunpowder down the barrel when on the run and spit a bell down the bore. When tipped down to shoot the ball would sometimes roll down the bore some before firing. This caused a short start position for one thing.  Another factor was the Indians seldom ever cleaned their guns and corrosion took place fast.  It is difficult  to blow up a barrel made of any kind of steel or iron
except for cast iron but a heavily over loaded corroded  barrel with a short started ball would be a disaster waiting to happen.
  As far as the brown Bess barrels go scared soldiers would often load one load on top of another when in battle. To compensate for this and other factors the English just required thicker barrels.
  I like this discussion also.

[Dennis Glazener]

I’ll be the first to admit my brain isn’t big enough to sort out all this gun barrel steel hog wash. I shoot muzzleloaders because I love to experience the feel of the past. Back in the muzzleloading era they didn’t blow up enormous numbers of guns because in spite of the often poor quality of the wrought iron barrels, and a general lack of formal education, they for the most part were smart enough not to overload their guns. Heck, if you keep the load light enough, and don’t use a hammer, and a steel range rod to load it, you could probably get away with a barrel made of gas pipe. So basically what I’m saying is this is not a barrel steel problem.

  Hungry Horse

    This could be the post that sparks the storm and bring on the locking down of the topic !! 
              I'm tempted....but no,  I won't take the bait 

Regarding the wonderfully informative post by JWE ,   I'm thinking that wrought iron's resistance to water is why we still see it being reclaimed from many old bridges ?  The supply that I have apparently came from an old early 19th C bridge.

I once tried to make a few breech plugs from 1 inch round wrought iron that came from an early bridge. It was so full of silica that it looked like fireworks turning it in the lathe. I abandoned the project. Actually left holes where the impurities were pulled out. I assume it was firstborn second run wrought.
Dennis

[ScottH]

Jim,
"Guys,

Wrought Iron Bar ASTM A189
Ultimate Tensile Strength  48,000 to 54,000 psi
Yield Strength    30,000 to 32,000 psi
Elongation  25%
Reduction in area  40%
High corrosion, fatigue, fracture, and shock resistance"

Is there any barrel makers out there offering barrels made from Wrought Iron Bar ASTM A189?

Thanks
Scott

[bob in the woods]

Cabin Creek offered some wrought iron barrels at one time. The wrought iron I have was purchased from them some years ago. Brad had a whole back of the stuff back then.