Author Topic: GOEX "Cartridge" black powder??  (Read 1535 times)

Offline Bigmon

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GOEX "Cartridge" black powder??
« on: October 06, 2020, 09:39:26 PM »
I just bought a case of 25# mixed Goex Powder, 2F 3F and a few cans of what is called Cartridge powder.  To me it looks about like 3F but maybe the granuals are sort of elongated?
Think this would make any difference in shooting?
I was told it is for loading in black powder cartridges, just like it says on the can.  But though I have a few older cartridge cuns I have never used BP in them.
Regards to all

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: GOEX "Cartridge" black powder??
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2020, 10:17:08 PM »
I shot a case of GOEX Cartridge a few years back, and treated it just like 2 Fg...worked fine!  I think the difference may be graphite polished powder and no fines, to speak of.
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Offline arcticap

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Re: GOEX "Cartridge" black powder??
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2020, 10:30:56 PM »
Smokymountainmike was given 2 pounds and posted:

"I took both of my 54 cal rifles to the range this afternoon. I tried both of them with the cartridge powder. Both rifles shot well using this powder and my groups were about the same as I was getting using FFG. I started with 80 grs and went up to 110 grs. I settled on 100 grs in both rifles. One of my rifles is a Lyman GPR and the other is a Pedersoli Rocky Mt Hawken. The Pedersoli really shined with this powder."

Skipper posted that it reportedly had a burn rate between 2F and 3F.
That possibly could have been surmised from cartridge load data published in the Lyman BP Handbook.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2020, 10:39:29 PM by arcticap »

Offline Bigmon

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Re: GOEX "Cartridge" black powder??
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2020, 02:41:54 AM »
I went thru that case of 25 cans and found two cans labeled "Cowboy" powder,  what ever that is?  I assume it's for cowboy action shooting?  It's all GOEX black powder.  I'll just try it out and see how it does?
Thanks for the input.

Offline riflee

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Re: GOEX "Cartridge" black powder??
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2020, 05:50:36 PM »
  I thought Goex Cartridge powder was discontinued? I liked it in cap&ball pistol and cartridge pistols(1851 Colt).   Cartridge Goex does have graphite I think to settle well from a drop tube.

If the Cartridge Goex is still selling I will be getting some. To tell the truth though the Alliant Black MZ I tested was just as consistent shooting. The only black powder sub I ever liked. The company making it closed shop and took the proprietary formula with it.































         

Offline Mad Monk

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Re: GOEX "Cartridge" black powder??
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2020, 06:20:47 AM »
I just bought a case of 25# mixed Goex Powder, 2F 3F and a few cans of what is called Cartridge powder.  To me it looks about like 3F but maybe the granuals are sort of elongated?
Think this would make any difference in shooting?
I was told it is for loading in black powder cartridges, just like it says on the can.  But though I have a few older cartridge guns I have never used BP in them.
Regards to all

The Goex "Cartridge" powder was made at the old Moosic, PA plant back in the 1990s. It was to compete with the Swiss powder in back powder cartridge shooting.  It was nothing more than the standard 2Fg powder with the fines screened out.  They quit making it before moving to Minden. Then when GOEX moved down to Minden, Louisiana they started to produce another premium owder that was made differently than standard powder.  For this powder they milled the charcoal and sulfur longer in the ball mill and extended wheel milling time by about 15 minutes.  Burned a bit faster and cleaner than the regular production.  When they got that into production they sent me some to shoot and take apart to see if the difference in processing had done what they wanted it to do.  Then more recently they came out with the English name powder but I never got a chance to look closely at it.

The Cowboy powder was just 3F with some of the coarse stuff screened out.  Used in reduced loads in black powder cartridge and cap and ball pistols used in Cowboy action shooting.  That also went out of production.

Bill K.

Offline Mad Monk

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Re: GOEX "Cartridge" black powder??
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2020, 06:35:38 AM »
  I thought Goex Cartridge powder was discontinued? I liked it in cap&ball pistol and cartridge pistols(1851 Colt).   Cartridge Goex does have graphite I think to settle well from a drop tube.

If the Cartridge Goex is still selling I will be getting some. To tell the truth though the Alliant Black MZ I tested was just as consistent shooting. The only black powder sub I ever liked. The company making it closed shop and took the proprietary formula with it.

If my memory serves me correctly the Alliant Black MZ was a modified smokeless powder.  Alliant is not for their smokeless powders made in Canada and that is where the Black MZ was made.
When I first got my hands on a container I tried to break it down in water to see what was in it.  That did not work.  As soon as I dumped it into acetone it dissolved. Then I separated it.  Some sort of slow burning smokeless with a bunch of inert powder in with it to keep it from going into a pressure responsive burn rate.  But when you looked at the price of the container you calculated it cost about $34 a pound at that time.  Now it would be up around $50 per pound.

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Online Daniel Coats

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Re: GOEX "Cartridge" black powder??
« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2020, 06:53:42 AM »
I experienced occasional misfires using GOEX Cartridge grade in a percussion rifle. Not a scientific study by any means but it was the only powder that had this problem in that particular rifle. 
Dan

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Offline riflee

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Re: GOEX "Cartridge" black powder??
« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2020, 06:49:08 PM »
  Howdy!
I was happy to find that BlackMZ sub when it said right on the jug of it that it was non-corrosive. I called to Aliant Powder and found it was discontinued. They said the company that made it closed up shop.

I tested it by shooting it several different days and leaving the gun uncleaned to see what would happen. The gun didn't corrode or rust. There was some smoke when it was fired I think.

Anywhooo.....I am glad the good ole Goex is still around. I don't like the idea of how the BATFE treats it with so many stipulations on it. I thunk it could be on the shelf in stores safely.  We are lucky to be able to get it at all.

If there was misfire with a percussion rifle with the "Cartridge Goex" then maybe it didn't tap down the flash channel well being somewhat elongated particles.

I haven't tried any of the other grades of the Goex like the Old Ensford type. Tried Swiss 1.5 and liked it in the rifle Hawken I have with the 1-22 twist rifling.

Is the Old Ensford type a higher grade powder than the regular Goex? 

I've only got one "FLINT LOCK" rifle I made and kept that I've shot. The 3F Goex works well in it. The Pedersoli flinter I have has never been shot. It's the Blue Ridge or "Frontier" model. There was a model of it sold as made in the USA but I fergit the name of it. It was very similar to the Pedersoli.  OH! my memory has slowly responded. It was the Hatfield rifle.

What am I getting at? I don't think Cartridge would work well in a flint lock rifle.

Instead of being on the "puter" pondering black powder I should go out and SHOOT some today. To heck with doing chores around the homestead today.

I like this web site. Even though I thunk I know it all bout black powder and shooting it and all.......I can always learn more from enlightened shooters.  Take care Pards!  It's a jungle out there.

Offline Mad Monk

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Re: GOEX "Cartridge" black powder??
« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2020, 08:54:22 PM »
  Howdy!
I was happy to find that BlackMZ sub when it said right on the jug of it that it was non-corrosive. I called to Aliant Powder and found it was discontinued. They said the company that made it closed up shop.

I tested it by shooting it several different days and leaving the gun uncleaned to see what would happen. The gun didn't corrode or rust. There was some smoke when it was fired I think.

If there was misfire with a percussion rifle with the "Cartridge Goex" then maybe it didn't tap down the flash channel well being somewhat elongated particles.
 

Is the Old Ensford type a higher grade powder than the regular Goex? 


What am I getting at? I don't think Cartridge would work well in a flint lock rifle.

The Black MZ was a slightly modified smokeless powder.  It left no potassium carbonate in the bore as you get with BP and the subs.  That coating of fine particles of potassium carbonate will pick up moisture from the air depending on the relative humidity.  Below 30% R.H. it is non-hygroscopic.  As the RH goes above 30% it will pick up moisture.  The "damp" particles of the potassium carbonate can set up tiny corrosion cells on the surface of the metal.  Then a point is reached where it forms a continuous film that does not all corrosion cells that would start to eat into the metal.  The smokeless does not produce potassium carbonate as a product of combustion so there is nothing on the surface of the metal that would cause electrolytic corrosion to go on.

The GOEX cartridge powder was simply regular 2Fg with the finer portions of the grain size mix removed.  You you would not get any fines into the vent to promote rapid ignition.  In most flinters the main charge would be spaced too far away from the outside of the vent to get reliable ignition.

From what I understand the Olde Ensford powder would be like the Express powder they made back around 2005 at Minden.  When GOEX got into that Express powder they simply ball milled the charcoal and sulfur mixture in the ball mill for a longer period of time to grind it to a finer particle size.  This would be expected to increase the burn rate of the finished powder a bit above their regular powder.  Then they would run the Express powder an additional 15 minutes in the wheel mill to get an even finer ingredient particle size grind.  Gives a bit faster and cleaner burning in the finished powder.  But it as something of a burden on the machinery scheduling time so it had to carry a higher price.  They sent me some to check if their approach actually worked. I checked the particle size of the charcoal in their regular production and the Express powder.  And the difference could be quantified.  But GOEX listened to the wrong people and priced the powder up there with the Swiss.  So it wasn't long before that product fell by the wayside.  Then they applied the same concept to the Olde Ensford but kept the price down to a little above regular production so they would not force that version out of the market. According to the then president of GOEX they would also sort through their incoming supply of charcoal and isolate batches where the fixed carbon content was at 75%. Differences in the fixed carbon content of the charcoal used has a noticeable effect or muzzle velocities produced by the different lots of powder. Lower fixed carbon burns faster and higher fixed carbon burns slower.

Bill K.

Offline riflee

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Re: GOEX "Cartridge" black powder??
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2020, 11:35:10 PM »
Mad Monk, you're a wealth of information. Interesting.

 I thunked on the Black MZ after shootin it and mentioned to my lovely wife it seemed a lot like smokeless powder. She just said ,"oh well".  I wasn't too far off the mark with my thunkin.   I wish Alliant would bring it back and...sell it a little cheaper. I could tell that powder seemed to make faster velocity.

Triple 7 FFF is a fast powder and....27gr FFF  of it harmed my pistol.  The triple 7 FF is better for a pistol and I kinda like it. The real black powder is on the top of my list though. Ifin it was good enough for Jeremiah Johnson it's good enough fer me. The book," Crow Killer", from Dixie Gun Works about Jeremiah is a good read.

Offline Mad Monk

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Re: GOEX "Cartridge" black powder??
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2020, 11:53:47 PM »
Mad Monk, you're a wealth of information. Interesting.

 I thunked on the Black MZ after shootin it and mentioned to my lovely wife it seemed a lot like smokeless powder. She just said ,"oh well".  I wasn't too far off the mark with my thunkin.   I wish Alliant would bring it back and...sell it a little cheaper. I could tell that powder seemed to make faster velocity.

Triple 7 FFF is a fast powder and....27gr FFF  of it harmed my pistol.  The triple 7 FF is better for a pistol and I kinda like it. The real black powder is on the top of my list though. Ifin it was good enough for Jeremiah Johnson it's good enough fer me. The book," Crow Killer", from Dixie Gun Works about Jeremiah is a good read.

The problem is when you work with small quantities of smokeless powder  you can't blend a bunch of batches to gain good uniformity from one lot to another.  You simply cannot produce a uniform product when working with small amounts of that stuff.  The military came up with bennite back in the 1970s to replace real black powder in the intermediate primer systems in large caliber artillery. They are still trying to make that stuff in a consistent form.  I was quizzed about that last year.  That mixture of black powder and smokeless powders ends up giving them the worst of both rather than the better of both.

The 777 is indeed a strong powder.  You simply use reduced loads unless you are shooting a very strong rifle or pistol.  You must treat that powder as you would treat the Swiss powder.  It is something of a BP sub ballistic strength equivalent.  Originally developed for the more expensive in-line rifles.  Ignition temperature higher that that of Pyrodex.  And since it contains no perchlorate it is not really corrosive in the gun.  When the plastic sabots were introduced the perchlorate made follow up reloads nearly impossible. The 777 did away with that problem.

Offline arcticap

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Re: GOEX "Cartridge" black powder??
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2020, 05:06:03 PM »
Originally developed for the more expensive in-line rifles.  Ignition temperature higher that that of Pyrodex.  And since it contains no perchlorate it is not really corrosive in the gun.  When the plastic sabots were introduced the perchlorate made follow up reloads nearly impossible. The 777 did away with that problem.

Mad Monk,
The SDS for 777 powder shows that it contains 15% - 40% potassium perchlorate.--->>>  https://hodgdon.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/2018-tripleseven-sds-new.pdf

That 777 SDS is dated August, 2018.
AFAIK all of the sub, powders contain potassium perchlorate including Blackhorn 209.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2020, 05:10:08 PM by arcticap »

Online Daryl

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Re: GOEX "Cartridge" black powder??
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2020, 09:07:14 PM »
Yes it does. Years ago, Bill explained that Hodgdon used the same of similar MSDS sheet for 777 as they had for Pyrodex as it was
easier and cheaper than producing a new sheet with the government testing needed - something like that. He also noted that when
he broke it down, if contained no chlorates.
Daryl

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Offline Bigmon

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Re: GOEX "Cartridge" black powder??
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2020, 12:48:14 AM »
Sounds like the cartridge and  / or the cowboy may be discontinued?  I have two cans of each if someone wants it?  I only have $20 per pound can in it and you are welcome to it for the same as I will only use it in my cannon?.  But I don't know if I can ship it?
Adios all

Offline Mad Monk

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Re: GOEX "Cartridge" black powder??
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2020, 01:53:09 AM »
Sounds like the cartridge and  / or the cowboy may be discontinued?  I have two cans of each if someone wants it?  I only have $20 per pound can in it and you are welcome to it for the same as I will only use it in my cannon?.  But I don't know if I can ship it?
Adios all

Both the GOEX CTG and the Cowboy powder were discontinued long ago.  Those were made at the old Moosic PA plant that closed in 1997.  Check the bottom of the cans for the packing dates on them. Generally the powder packing was done on B shift by women who worked the packing section.  Back in the 1990 GOEX tried these what I call niche powders.  The CTG was simply regular production 2Fg powder screened to remove some of the fines that would have been in the upper end of the 3Fg grain size range.  Then in the Cowboy powder you see more fiine grains.  With the percussion and cartridge revolvers used in Cowboy Action shooting they shot rather light loads of fine grain powder to cut down on pistol recoil.  When GOEX started up Minden with all of its production problems they gave up on the niche powders and only got back into it around 2004 when they came out with the Express powder for bp cartridge shooters to better compete with the Swiss powder.

I should point out here that you cannot sell and reship black powder under the law.  If the BATF catches you reselling black powder you can get in big trouble.  When small groups of shooters get together and buy a case of black powder to be split up amoungst the group you must be careful.  If you can prove that the different shooters contributed to a group fund it will pass by the BATF.  But if a single individual puts up all of the money when ordering and then has the members of the group buy it off him/her it becomes questionable if the BATF gets wind of the deal.  You can only sell BP if you are licensed to do so.

Bill K.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: GOEX "Cartridge" black powder??
« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2020, 04:57:20 AM »
I just bought a case of 25# mixed Goex Powder, 2F 3F and a few cans of what is called Cartridge powder.  To me it looks about like 3F but maybe the granuals are sort of elongated?
Think this would make any difference in shooting?
I was told it is for loading in black powder cartridges, just like it says on the can.  But though I have a few older cartridge cuns I have never used BP in them.
Regards to all
Cartridge is glorified FF.
Let us rather no longer insult them with the supposition that they can ever reduce themselves to the necessity of making the experiment, by a blind and tame submission to the long train of insidious measures which must precede and produce it.  Jame Madison
 Its been happening for over 100 years.

Offline Mad Monk

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Re: GOEX "Cartridge" black powder??
« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2020, 05:53:35 AM »
Originally developed for the more expensive in-line rifles.  Ignition temperature higher that that of Pyrodex.  And since it contains no perchlorate it is not really corrosive in the gun.  When the plastic sabots were introduced the perchlorate made follow up reloads nearly impossible. The 777 did away with that problem.

Mad Monk,
The SDS for 777 powder shows that it contains 15% - 40% potassium perchlorate.--->>>  https://hodgdon.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/2018-tripleseven-sds-new.pdf

That 777 SDS is dated August, 2018.
AFAIK all of the sub, powders contain potassium perchlorate including Blackhorn 209.

The literature on the contents of the 777 is misleading.  When Hodogon realized that Pyrodex use in the in-line rifles was a problem with the potassium perchlorate residue in the bore they had to come up with a replacement.  The entire patent concept behind Pyrodex was the use of sodium benzoate as the "fuel".  But it's reaction rate during powder combustion was too slow to be used in a propellant powder alone.  So in the 777 they replaced the sodium benzoate with sodium dinitro benzoate.  This particular chemical has long been used in the manufacture of organic textile and paper dyes.  It is something of an ideal replacement for the plain sodium benzoate.  It is highly reactive with charcoal so they could do away with the potassium perchlorate in the 777.  But at the same time they could not develop an entirely new formulation or they would have had to go through lengthy and expensive certification of it.  So this way the switch to the dinitro and the changing of other ingredients in the Pyrodex formulation allowed them to simply describe it as a modification of an existing product and avoid all of the time and expense of a new formulation powder.

Offline Mad Monk

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Re: GOEX "Cartridge" black powder??
« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2020, 06:03:03 AM »
Originally developed for the more expensive in-line rifles.  Ignition temperature higher that that of Pyrodex.  And since it contains no perchlorate it is not really corrosive in the gun.  When the plastic sabots were introduced the perchlorate made follow up reloads nearly impossible. The 777 did away with that problem.

Mad Monk,
The SDS for 777 powder shows that it contains 15% - 40% potassium perchlorate.--->>>  https://hodgdon.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/2018-tripleseven-sds-new.pdf

That 777 SDS is dated August, 2018.
AFAIK all of the sub, powders contain potassium perchlorate including Blackhorn 209.

It is simply not true that all of the BP subs contain potassium perchlorate.  The Blackhorn 209 was a modified smokeless powder made by alliance in Canada.   They used some sort of intert material.  This was done to kill the normal nitrocellulose burn rate response to rising pressures and temperatures.  That addition of an inert filler also considerably reduces the total potential energy of the charges in the gun.  Black powder guns are little more than single stroke heat engines.  When it comes to converting potential energy in a powder charge to kinetic energy in a projectile you are looking at about 8 to 11% efficiency in that energy conversion.  The APP ascorbic acid based powder does not have any potassium perchlorate in it.  Some of the other versions that did not stay on the market very long did contain it.

Offline Bigmon

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Re: GOEX "Cartridge" black powder??
« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2020, 12:24:04 AM »
Thanks to all for the knowledge.  I certainly had no intentions of breaking a law, just helping out.
I see it for sale often at gunshow tables or auctions and flea markets.  I guess they need to be careful also.

Offline Mad Monk

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Re: GOEX "Cartridge" black powder??
« Reply #20 on: November 12, 2020, 04:18:25 AM »
Thanks to all for the knowledge.  I certainly had no intentions of breaking a law, just helping out.
I see it for sale often at gunshow tables or auctions and flea markets.  I guess they need to be careful also.

They are taking a chance with it.  Gunshops are not allowed to have cans of black powder on display.  They must be kept away from the customers in the 25 pound capacity ATF approved storage magazines.  Steel boxes on wheels with locking lids.  Those who work behind the counter in a gunshop must be licensed to handle and sell the powder.  If not they can not as much as pick a can up. When my wife worked behind the counter at Dixons during the gunmaker's fair she could not as much as touch a can of black powder since she was not licensed by the BATF to do so.  but here at home a UPS truck would pile two 25-pound cases of bp on my front porch and the wife would move them inside until I got home. 

You can sell empty powder cans with no trouble.  As long as there is no powder in them.  Usually sold as collectibles.   With the BATF haunting gun shows it is taking a risk selling powder cans with any powder in them.  A few years ago the BATF also took to haunting flea markets here in Eastern PA and actually arrested a few who were openly selling handguns off tables at flea markets.