Author Topic: Early maple stocked rifle at Morphy auction  (Read 5855 times)

Offline rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 18936
Early maple stocked rifle at Morphy auction
« on: October 07, 2020, 04:00:17 PM »
The sort of early colonial gun mostly imagined previously. Thoughts?
http://auctions.morphyauctions.com/_a__early_newly_discovered_pre_revolutionary_war_a-lot492976.aspx
Andover, Vermont

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13267
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: Early maple stocked rifle at Morphy auction
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2020, 04:14:28 PM »
Groovy.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline lexington1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 523
Re: Early maple stocked rifle at Morphy auction
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2020, 06:40:52 PM »
Not to be publicly vilified, but it looks typically German to me. At least the hardware is. I wonder if it has been restocked and if so at what point is it considered an American rifle?

Offline rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 18936
Re: Early maple stocked rifle at Morphy auction
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2020, 07:01:41 PM »
Let the vilification begin!  Just kidding.

It being a colonial restock of a European gun seems a very reasonable hypothesis to me. Alternatively, parts from several guns were used.
I noted the barrel with touchhole looks original, not reconverted.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2020, 09:42:04 PM by rich pierce »
Andover, Vermont

Offline Robby

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2609
  • NYSSR ―
Re: Early maple stocked rifle at Morphy auction
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2020, 07:38:22 PM »
Early this morning?
Robby
molon labe
We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution. A. Lincoln

Offline lexington1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 523
Re: Early maple stocked rifle at Morphy auction
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2020, 07:40:52 PM »
I think it's pretty cool. I think Rich is probably right on. I love these early rifles!

Offline Tanselman

  • member 2
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1559
Re: Early maple stocked rifle at Morphy auction
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2020, 10:34:15 PM »
Regardless of possible European furniture, it's fascinating to see a very early carved American rifle. The artistic importance is in the stocking, providing us with a great example of an early American gunsmith's artistic abilities. Just to get the ball rolling, I think the butt and wrist carving is related to the early carving of George Schroyer... and it even has his little volutes on either end of the cheekpiece. Great study piece at an early date. I also think the lid might be a replacement due to its lesser quality incised carving. Shelby Gallien

Offline 120RIR

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 371
Re: Early maple stocked rifle at Morphy auction
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2020, 11:03:41 PM »
Here's a question for some of you more learned gentlemen...with New World hardwoods having been a major export to the Old, it is beyond the realm of possibility that this is completely of European manufacture, just using an imported wood?  If that's not likely, then specifically why not?  Is the carving style a dead giveaway perhaps?

There are also some other very nice longrifles, muskets, and fowlers in the same Morphy's auction.

Offline rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 18936
Re: Early maple stocked rifle at Morphy auction
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2020, 11:23:21 PM »
They state the patchbox lid is a replacement. I find the cheekpiece carving makes me think Schroyer at first then it was pointed out to me that there are similarities to RCA 21-23 carving.


The question of American hardwoods sent to Europe comes up a lot. I think there’s about a 0.10% chance or less based on thousands of “jaeger” rifles in European collections all stocked in Euro hardwoods. If it was at all common, seems we’d see some curly maple jaegers signed by Euro makers and in Euro collections. So, as we used to say in science, “It’s a formal possibility.”
Andover, Vermont

Offline alex e.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 760
Re: Early maple stocked rifle at Morphy auction
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2020, 11:49:33 PM »
I like that gun alot. To me it has nice lines.
I personally  think it a restock.  Mostly Germanic  parts.  Did anyone  notice remnants of a two bladed sight.
Am I wrong  that I am seeing some incised carvings? Quite  a bit actually.  Is that a European feature for the period?
The straight  cheekpiece, is that common on European  arms of that period?
And the maple stock.
The buttplate  looks like  it could have been an  English  styled something at one point.
Just some thoughts..
Uva uvam videndo varia fit

Offline Tanselman

  • member 2
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1559
Re: Early maple stocked rifle at Morphy auction
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2020, 06:04:55 AM »
There are a few similarities in details to a number of early rifles. I looked at the RCA 21-23 rifles, and find the carving on the auction rifle is significanlty closer to the early Schroyers, as is the basic cheek style. It doesn't mean it was made by Schroyer, but he's sure in the running for stocking this one.  Shelby Gallien

Offline Eric Kettenburg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4044
    • Eric Kettenburg
Re: Early maple stocked rifle at Morphy auction
« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2020, 03:41:36 PM »
Interesting piece.  As noted the "restock" title seems quite apt.  Despite the heavy wear to the carving, it clearly displays the work of a very accomplished stocker as does the stock shaping.  Some similarities in the carving here and there to other work but honestly I doubt it's going to be possible to put a name on this rifle unless one really does a lot of stretching.

I also don't necessarily think that it needs be super early in date.  As a restock it may even be War-era work; nobody would discard usable components simply for being 'old fashioned!'
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline RAT

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 697
Re: Early maple stocked rifle at Morphy auction
« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2020, 06:11:01 AM »
European gun parts were shipped to American. This could be an American-stocked rifle and not a re-stock. Just saying it's possible.

Regarding American wood being shipped to Europe... The things I've read indicate the wood was primarily for ship building and furniture making, depending of course on the kind of wood. Some South American wood was used for making dye.

I think if good American wood was commonly available for gunmaking in Europe we wouldn't see as many fine guns with wood patches. Some might think these patches were in-service repairs, but I think there is evidence that things like knots and other defects were removed and patched before the stocking.
Bob

Offline wildcatter

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 255
Re: Early maple stocked rifle at Morphy auction
« Reply #13 on: October 09, 2020, 04:59:55 PM »
Great gun, thanks for sharing the auction link!

Matt 
You have to play this game like somebody just hit your mother with a two-by-four.

Offline lexington1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 523
Re: Early maple stocked rifle at Morphy auction
« Reply #14 on: October 09, 2020, 06:12:28 PM »
Bob, you have a good point regarding patching of wood on Euro guns. I have a few German rifles that have wood patches. They are original work and not restoration. This early rifle by Johannes Wolf Peter has had the cheekpiece added to to get the width, probably about 1/2" or so.




Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6834
Re: Early maple stocked rifle at Morphy auction
« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2020, 07:11:45 PM »
Hi,
Two things I find interesting.  I wonder if the trigger guard is a replacement. It appears that a very similar but slightly larger one is outlined in the mortice for the front finial.  The second feature is that I am pretty sure the butt plate is from a pattern 1757 British marine and militia musket on which the tang and bottom were reshaped. I am not sure what all that means but it is interesting.

dave 
« Last Edit: October 10, 2020, 01:22:51 AM by smart dog »
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline Carl Young

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 577
Re: Early maple stocked rifle at Morphy auction
« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2020, 01:10:30 AM »
For your consideration, in particular Number 80 from "Official Catalogue of the Museum of Artillery in the Rotunda, Woolwich"
J. H. Lefroy, Jan 1864
https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=X8o_AAAAcAAJ&hl=en&pg=GBS.PA56

I'm not claiming this is generally applicable but it is limited documentation of a variety of woods, whose geographic origin is not specified, being used in early 19th century Europe.
Carl
Already long ago, from when we sold our vote to no man, the People have abdicated our duties; for the People who once upon a time handed out military command, high civil office, legions — everything, now restrains itself and anxiously hopes for just two things: bread and circuses. -Juvenal

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13267
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: Early maple stocked rifle at Morphy auction
« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2020, 05:49:42 PM »
Bob, you have a good point regarding patching of wood on Euro guns. I have a few German rifles that have wood patches. They are original work and not restoration. This early rifle by Johannes Wolf Peter has had the cheekpiece added to to get the width, probably about 1/2" or so.



Very common practice on Brandenburg guns
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13267
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: Early maple stocked rifle at Morphy auction
« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2020, 05:54:57 PM »
There is a Moravian gun (I think) on the KRA disc by Wes White that has about a bazillion small patches on the check side of the butstock. If I recall the carving goes right through them. So it seems even here in the colonies if while shaping out the stock and some ugliness popped up it was patched and life went on.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6834
Re: Early maple stocked rifle at Morphy auction
« Reply #19 on: October 12, 2020, 02:06:26 AM »
Hi,
Doesn't anybody have opinions about the the comments I made concerning the trigger guard and butt plate?

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 18936
Re: Early maple stocked rifle at Morphy auction
« Reply #20 on: October 12, 2020, 04:54:14 AM »
Hi,
Doesn't anybody have opinions about the the comments I made concerning the trigger guard and butt plate?

dave

Dave, regarding the guard front extension, that is something I noticed also. I wondered if maybe the front bit broke off and was restored. That apparently happened from time to time- the front of RCA 19 is a replacement. I looked at the rear bit of the guard on this gun and thought it seems narrow and right for the inlet, so I’m not sure.

I don’t know enough about British guns to say more than the buttplate sure looks like a British musket buttplate.

Altogether the parts suite suggest it is not a direct restock of an otherwise intact Germanic gun.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Eric Kettenburg

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4044
    • Eric Kettenburg
Re: Early maple stocked rifle at Morphy auction
« Reply #21 on: October 12, 2020, 12:57:18 PM »
I'd agree also, if it is indeed a brit buttplate, it surely reinforces the idea of a "parts gun." 

About the guard and guard inlet:  this one is really a tough call just based upon internet photos.  I've seen many old guns with guard inlets which after years of refinishing and years of brass polishing, look 'wallowed' larger than the finials.  Also they sometimes shift, as this one has, toward one side or the other via driving the pin into place multiple times.  If the guard is mispositioned when driving in the pin, it also can enlarge the mortise.  However, this looks like a "clean" enlargement if that makes sense.  I tried zooming in on the photos as much as I can without pixelating, it's possible there may be a joint in the front post of the guard just above the finial (looks visible on both sides, but I might be imagining it because now I'm looking for it!!!).  A joint might be a repair, or it might be original work; some German guards were assembled and brazed together very neatly out of sheet pieces. I've seen it a number of times, and it was original work.  More common on pistols, though.

The bottom line is, I would love to put on my detective hat and really take this one apart.  It appears it already has been dismantled recently.

It is very common for auction companies to miss things done to these old guns over the years whether deliberate or not (separate issue).  Many times things do not materialize until the piece is taken apart.
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6834
Re: Early maple stocked rifle at Morphy auction
« Reply #22 on: October 12, 2020, 02:38:31 PM »
Hi,
Below is a photo of a pattern 1757 marine and militia musket.  It is easy to see how it could be modified slightly to produce the one on the rifle.  The screw position is an exact match.



To me the significance of that is that few if any militia muskets were ever used in North America and there likely would not be many surplus or captured marine muskets available to American gun makers until 1775.  There might have been a bunch available after Lexington and Concord. I don't think British ordnance would have surplused components until after the last production of the musket in 1776.  I suppose some old militia muskets from the 1760s might be sold off and find their way to America.  Likewise, a marine musket might get picked up during one of the campaigns in the West Indies before the AWI, in which American colonists participated.  Anyway, some food for thought about the date of the rifle.

dave   
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline JV Puleo

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 899
Re: Early maple stocked rifle at Morphy auction
« Reply #23 on: October 12, 2020, 07:19:12 PM »
A couple of points to add to this discussion...

Under a law passed in 1757, it required a license from the Privy Council to export military stores of any kind, including all guns and gun parts as well as gunpowder from Britain. This extended to British colonies and to Ireland as well. The council embargoed shipments to America in 1774 and the embargo was not partially lifted until December of 1792 and, even then only for swords, pistols and fowling pieces which had to have a wooden ramrod and not be fitted with a bayonet. One need only read the plaintive advertisements in American newspapers for anyone who might be able to make a gun lock (clock makers, locksmiths etc...) to understand that this was a skill that was almost completely lacking in America as late as the Revolution (and, I would argue, for a long time afterward).

Thus, the sale of obsolete British arms in America just prior to the Revolution is effectively impossible. While the odd example may have reached these shores by some circuitous route, the Marine & Militia pattern musket must have been virtually unknown. Most were issued to the British militia - another subject altogether and one that is poor understood today - but one that largely precludes their coming to America.

Hardwoods were the single largest export from America from colonial times through the 1820s or 30s. In keeping with Britain's mercantilist trade laws, practically all of it went to England until after the Revolution. Wood that was suitable for furniture was often suitable for gun making. Unfortunately, the trade records rarely specify what kind of wood it was but soft woods were readily available from Russia and the Baltic (a much shorter journey) so virtually all the American exports were hardwoods. I do have one period reference to the export of maple gun stock wood to Liverpool, albeit at a much later date – 1817 – but I would not assume that was the first time it was done. Except for a short period around 1800-1805 when we see some used by top end London makers, maple was not a popular stock wood in England. But, even though shipments had to go to England, there was no barrier to trans shipping goods from England to the continent. That was commonly done and constituted a considerable portion of British trade and as long as the goods traveled in British bottoms, was encouraged.

Quite a lot of records exist concerning this trade but none are readily available via the internet. We've only begun to scratch the surface of what is available. If I had to guess, I'd say that collectors have grossly underestimated the sophistication of 18th century trade.

As far as this rifle is concerned, I'm inclined to think it's a high quality American restock of an earlier rifle, perhaps with a part or two replaced...if the butt stock was broken off, a new butt plate would have been needed and from 1774 to 1793 I greatly doubt that any older, usable gun parts were discarded because they were old fashioned.

« Last Edit: October 12, 2020, 07:26:49 PM by JV Puleo »

Online spgordon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1289
Re: Early maple stocked rifle at Morphy auction
« Reply #24 on: October 12, 2020, 09:24:55 PM »
Immigrants from Europe worked at lockmaking in America--hard to know how many. But William Henry II, master of the small Christian's Spring shop in 1779 and struggling with an ambitious contract that Oerter had arranged, tried to recruit the Englishman Joseph Perkin to Christian's Spring to "instruct him in the Gun Lock Making Trade."

Years later (1810), William Henry III was instructed in the same trade by "David Maston, a master lockfiler and English workman."

These are two examples that I've come across in my very narrow field of study. I can't imagine but that there were more...



« Last Edit: October 12, 2020, 09:28:34 PM by spgordon »
Check out: The Lost Village of Christian's Spring
https://christiansbrunn.web.lehigh.edu/
And: The Earliest Moravian Work in the Mid-Atlantic: A Guide
https://www.moravianhistory.org/product-page/moravian-activity-in-the-mid-atlantic-guidebook