Skatter Gun

[Mule Brain]

I emailed Rice the same question, and will post their response. Wonder what insight you can provide?

I have a new Rifle with a barrel marked  C    1.66  S D R50

This barrel is on a Colonial Rifle from Kibler. 

Shooting it from bench, it won't group for snot. I am using pillow ticking with.60 grains FF, .490 and .495 round balls to no avail.


What am I doing wrong?

[sqrldog]

1/66 is a fairly slow twist try upping your powder charge. Also shoot the barrel a few times to settle the barrel a little.  Check patches for cutting etc. Sometimes you have go find what load combo the barrel likes not necessarily what you like.

[Mike from OK]

I agree with sqrldog... Try bumping up your powder charge. Offhand I don't remember what the max charge for a .50 barrel is but 70 or 75 grains isn't out of line for a 50.

Mike

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

MB:  pillow ticking is a pretty broad word for patch material...have seen it to be excellent and useless, according to its weight (thickness and weave).  It is more useful for diagnosis purposes to know the thickness of the cloth. 
I have two .50's currently, and they both have Rice barrels.  They both like 72 gr. FFg GOEX ('cause that's what my antler measure throws), .495" pure lead ball from a Lyman mould, and patches of denim fabric from the yards goods store that measures .018" - .020" compressed in Vernier's calipers with my thumb and index finger.
Another issue has to do with your sights.  Make sure the notch in your rear sight is large enough that you can see light on both sides of your front sight.  That will also aid in keeping the front sight level with the top of the rear sight.

[recurve]

try 10oz denim .020 or 12oz .022 Jeanne fabrics  make sure 100% cotton and a good lube (I like mutton tallow) I found most pillow ticking is .015-.018 and if you have round bottom rifling  it needs to be thicker & all my .50s like 70grns 3f
Try shooting groups from the bench supported(sand bags)   

[Mule Brain]

Thanks for all the advice, will take calipers to the fabric shop. 

[hanshi]

My .54 has a 1-66" twist and uses a patch that's pretty snug.  With 60 grains of 3F it does about an inch at 60 yards.  A thicker patch sounds like a good possibility.

[Silky921]

Some good advice has been listed above. I would add, don't be afraid to use 3F as well.

[EC121]

What do the patches say?  Are they cut?  Try some .480 balls, and the thickest patch you can find.  I use them with .022-.023 canvas to fill those grooves. 

[Mule Brain]

Here is the reply from Rice, and oh I have been using 015 pillow ticking already. the patches looked pretty frayed on the edges. I don't have any .480, will have to get some. All I have is .490, and .495   


Hi Patrick,

Thank you for your email.  The powder charge you're using is very light.  I start with 80 gr of 2FF real black powder .

Also you did not mention what thickness patch you were using.  I would start with .015 - .016.  and a quality lube such as bore butter, Leigh Valley, mink oil,bear oil.  Make sure to repeat you're loading and cleaning process from shot to shot.  This is very important.

I would also work up the load at 50 yds. 

Shoot a 3 shot group at 50 yds with the above starting load.  Record all the load info on the target.  Put up a fresh target and increase your powder charge to 85 gr.  Shoot a 3 shot group.  Repeat each time and increase your powder charge by 5 gr.  The max charge will be 100gr.  Look at your targets and see which one is the best.  If you're looking for better accuracy then increase your patch thickness with the charge that shot the best. 

Let me know your results.

Thank you,
Jason

[Daryl]

Mule Brain, Jason's note is a good one.  I personally load 85gr. 2F  GOEX in my .50 with a .495" patch and 10 ounce denim which I measure at .021" compressed
with dial calipers (the tines between finger and thumb).
With this combination, no wiping is needed while shooting, if using a water based lube.  If using an oil or grease, more powder is likely needed for accuracy & as well
there should be no trouble shooting without wiping. Your accuracy should be excellent & unchanging for a number of groups.

[alacran]

 Jason  is a fine gentleman,but I think you should be able to get that barrel to shoot with a load in the 50 grain range.. I have been able to get good groups using 50 grains of 2f. This I've done using GMT, GRRW, Douglas and Rice barrels. Your problem is your patching.
 I had a Rice b weight .50 with radius rifling and shot great with 50 grains out to 50 yards.
I used both .020 Texas patching teflon patching, Minuteman .020 Teflon patching, and JO Ann's cotton drill 40 lubed with bear oil or mink oil.
That barrel also shot great with 85 grains of 2f. That was the hunting load I used.

[Scota4570]

Round bottom deep rifling??? 

[alacran]

Like I said Rice .50 radiused rifling. However deep that is.

[Mule Brain]

I ran across some Bull Denim, and it is coming out to 0.20 compressed. I bought over a yard of it. I cant wait to try it out

[Scota4570]

Like I said Rice .50 radiused rifling. However deep that is.

"GROOVES: Round bottom CUT rifling .016 deep. Standard in swamp barrels. Square bottom CUT rifling to .012 deep."

I tried one RB rifling barrel and ended up putting it in the scrap steel bin.  My accuracy standards are pretty high. My theory is that gas leaks past the center of the groove.  With 50:50 land and groove ratio, there was no way to load a combo tight enough to seal the grooves.  I tried fiber wads to make a seal but accuracy did not improve.  I gave up at that point.

IT may be possible to use a larger charge of finer powder and upset he ball into the deep grooves.  As a target shooter I was not interested in heavy recoil. 

The replacement barrel was conventional rifling.  IT gave me no accuracy problems at all. 

Your barrel is a 0.500 bore and 0.016 groove depth, total groove depth caliber is 0.532".  You are shooting a 0.490 ball in a barrel that is 53 caliber.  So .490 ball leaves 0.005" windage on the lands and 0.021" windage in the center of the groove.  I would be looking for a patch of 0.025".   Since the lands and grooves are equal width, that is very difficult to load.  Try some denim from old jeans??

[Daryl]

The math tells no lie.  A 12 ounce minimum (.025" compressed in mt mic) to 14 ounce (.030" compressed in my mic) denim is called for.
With my calipers, I measure those at .030" and .034" compressed.
Now, Taylor has a Rice round bottomed barrel in .50 on his Virginia rifle. With a light charge of 2F, around 80gr., he is getting really good accuracy with .496" balls and a .020" patch, however recovered patches show brown streaks of blowby. Even at that, no wiping is necessary while shooting.
In a .50, with a 175gr. ball (or thereabouts) I doubt you will "see" any obturation of the ball. I'm sure it happens somewhat with .562" to .575" balls, but not convinced it
happens with balls lighter than about 250gr.

[lexington1]

How is the crown? I love Rice barrels, but I had one that wouldn't group at all. I had it recrowned and it instantly became a tack driver. Incidentally it is a .50 and I use ~.20 cotton duck patching with spit lube, 3f Goex, and a .490 ball. It loads a little tight, but not so tight that I have to use a short starter.

[smallpatch]

I’ve used at least 15 Rice barrels, and NEVER had one that wouldn’t shoot.
All shoot with a .005” undersized ball, with a .020” patch from the first shot.  Tried .025” with no significant improvement.  First 7 shots out of a new barrel.

[Scota4570]

Accuracy expectations are subjective.  I would expect that group at 50 yards, not 25. 

[alacran]

Accuracy expectations are subjective.  I would expect that group at 50 yards, not 25.

I agree .
 I forgot to mention that I was using .495 balls. When I first started using that barrel I was using teflon patching, by Texaspatching co.  The barrel shot great with it . But having to wipe between shots with the Teflon patching, it pushed a lot of fowling to the breech.
A .50 B weight swamped barrel is not a bench gun it is a hunting weight barrel. Don't expect to get bench rest standards of accuracy for it.That being said I did manage to put 5 balls in a 25 yard 6 bull target at 50 yards with it offhand. That is the type of accuracy needed for hunting in a light weight barrel.
Daryl stated that Taylor is getting great accuracy out of his Virginia profile .50. That barrel is a heavy thick walled barrel in a .50.
It has very little swamp. Makes a long barreled heavy gun that I would never take hunting.

[Scota4570]

Any statement of accuracy testing need to be as tested from a solid rest.  Bench rest with sandbags under the but  is the best way to eliminate human error.  Offhand shooting is a great test of the rifleman but tells us little about the rifle. 

[ibogle]

Not wanting to take over the thread.  Reading comments from various threads and decided to post my results.  Been playing with a 54 caliber 1-60 twist was having trouble getting consistent shots aka "skatter gun".  Started with a .530 round ball with t-shirt thickness patch, hey I hit the paper.  Long story short I went out to the range today with some fresh dead soft lead .535 balls, bore butter lubed .018 pillow ticking patches, over powder wool felt wads and 80 grains of 3F Goex and did not wipe between shots.  Had 2 wingers at 65ish yards but the rest were touching

[alacran]

Any statement of accuracy testing need to be as tested from a solid rest.  Bench rest with sandbags under the but  is the best way to eliminate human error.  Offhand shooting is a great test of the rifleman but tells us little about the rifle.

Again I agree with you. That is the way I develop my loads. However once best loads are established, I sight in my rifles offhand. That is what most of my target shooting is.
Occasionally I will shoot cross stick matches and was seriously into it at one time. Two rifles I can do that with and they are way to heavy for offhand shooting.

[smylee grouch]

You might try a thicker patch, 535s and ditch the bore butter. Saturate the patches and smooth the crown. Might be worth a try.