Lower Hay Lake Rifle

[sqrldog]

I am posting pictures of the Lower Hay Lake rifle for Ray Nelson. The remnant rifle was found in Minnesota.  Ray will provide more information.  Tim

[Ray Nelson]

The broken relic gunstock got the name from me as I've been the one doing research that I began over 30 years ago. The relic was found sometime between 1925 and 1940 along the shoreline of Lower Hay Lake in North central Minnesota by an amateur archaeologist of the time. It spent most of its time from then in storage until I spotted it in the mid 1980's while I was maintaining the gun collection in the county museum where it resides now. When I spotted it, I realized immediately it was unique (it was an 1700's looking) rifle stock and not northwest Trade gun etc. (as usual here) and needed to be researched. No one had done so at that point.

The stock profile even thou broken off and missing the wood/barrel fore ward of lock plate and side plate was slim and flowed. The relic is composed of a narrow 1 3/8"s wide parallel sided European/fowler type 4 3/4" tall buttplate with engraved 4 "s long asymmetric tang; cheek rest is a very prominent 'half oval' Germanic looking; it possesses a dovetailed wood box; flat 1/16" thickness engraved feathered serpent looking sideplate; flint lockplate (5 9/16"s by 1" dimensions) round faced banana shaped with internal tumbler bridle, with screw hole locations indicating removable pan and bridle less frizzen once existed. Also a tear drop shape trigger plate and a piece of rear trigger guard attached with screw and shape typical of early rifle trigger guards. The wrist measurement is a slim 1 3/8's round. Furniture is brass.

Beginning in 1989, I sent photo's to Kit Ravenshear, Charles Hanson (Museum of the Fur Trade), George Shumway, old friend then Curly Gostomski and others as well. They all responded pretty much alike in saying this was different from the usual. After gathering information from them and researching myself, the consensus was it was a very early Northern European Export Trade rifle possibly from along the France and German boundary. Kit mentioned possibly Danish area as well possibly? This rifle contrasted tremendously from usual Germanic land developments which has become a curious and enjoyable use of my gun interest for all these 30+ years now.

My research of fur trade indicates the rifle coming during the British fur trade to here, likely during the 1760's or early 1770's. Rifle caliber based on known barrel artifacts along the trade route here ranged from 42 -60 caliber that are between 34"s and 45"s long. One mostly straight octagon, one octagon swamp and one octagon taper barrel profiles. Rifle barrels found in the surrounding area are quite a rare find. A smooth barrel is of course real possible too.

The earliest fur trade record found with actual rifles coming this direction via Michilimackinac is 1769 along with 100 NW trade guns.

Ray

[Ray Nelson]

[Idaho Wolf tracker]

Pretty interesting... thanks for posting

[Majorjoel]

Just amazing for the stock wood to have survived the outside elements where most archeological findings only produce metal parts. (brass mostly) The closeups almost look like a stock that had been in a fire to my eye.   

 Quite a find in your area of the north and whoever picked it up originally way back in the early to mid 20th century did us all a big favor for keeping it!   So many like artifacts would have been overlooked, discarded, and destroyed back then and even now, many do not see things the way we do!

Thank you Ray for sharing this and Tim for bringing up the pictures!   Made my day!

[Ray Nelson]

Joel,

The relic was under water for much of this time. Lower Hay Lake is part of the Pine River Reservoir (Whitefish Chain of Lakes). The dam raised the water level 10 feet + and during fall draw down or low water time it eventually became exposed to be found.

Ray

[mountainman70]

What does the rest of the gun pictured with the relic look like? Neat find. Thanks for showing it. Dave F

[Ray Nelson]

Dave,

Ok! Here goes on the build. Tim instructed me on how to post photo's so will go at it. Ray

[Ray Nelson]

Buck taken with the rifle 2 weeks ago.

[vanu]

Extremely interesting! Looks Scandinavian to me (parallel stock/butt profile with sliding wooden patchbox and shallow curved cheek piece)...If the collection data are correct, this artifact really serves to broaden the circle of the types of european arms used in North america. I'll be very interested in the opinions of early trade gun experts...
 

[Idaho Wolf tracker]

Nice looking rifle and buck Ray.

[Ray Nelson]

Vanu,

I am looking into the Scandinavian possibility more as well. In particular looking at James McGill, Laurenze Ermantinger and John Askin trade connections to Scandinavian/Danish firearms in 1760-1780 time frame?

Ray

[Mike Brooks]

Have the wood tested. I'm betting on birch. I'm guessing some immagrant squarehead brought it with him from Sweden or Norway. Take a look at the Swedish sled guns thread.

[Ray Nelson]

I would like to find one. The area where found was Ojibwe occupied treaty land until after 1855. A few Scandinavians appear in American Fur Trade hires in 1818. Closest Scandinavian descent record afterwards found worked at the Crow Wing Indian Agency 1851. After the 1855 treaty many arrived to log the white pine which was done in that area beginning in the 1880's. Would they arrive carrying a gun that old?

[Ted Kramer]

That’s a nice rifle & buck Ray. When you brought it here last year it sure handled and balanced nicely. A joy to carry on a hunt no doubt.

I’m always in awe of your research, knowledge and detail of these things. Good job all around.

Hope we can get together in the new year.

Ted

[vanu]

The lock looks like it may be converted to percussion - so by the mid-19th century it wouldn't be too unusual, also the sliding wood box tradition held on well into the 19th century on Scandinavian/Germanic rifles; therefore a ca. 1850's +/- date for this arm to be in the region would be reasonable i should think.

[Ray Nelson]

First I'd like to Thank Tim for starting this post and re-kindling the fire.

Also, I appreciate the observations and comments folks have made here thus far. They have reminded me of something a fine Native lady from Le Pas in Manitoba Canada told me years ago when I purchased a fine hand made sash from her. "There are two sides of the river that people live on. Sometimes we get used to living on one side in seeing the view of the river. Cross over and see the river from the other side, see a different view of the same river." I will cross the river more.

My first action will be to once again suggest to the museum that the pieces of wood I tidily left in a bag be tested. This may need me to fund but now seems like the best next step.

A couple of pursuits I will still plan to undertake revolve around a cargo of Danish arms being sent to America in 1777. Destination? This was Revolutionary war time. There was a known need for arms.

Also, the relic was found near two British fur trade post locations with one taken over by the American Fur Company. Natives lived in close proximity and area has many artifacts bearing this presence. There are material objects collected by residents in this now highly developed area and some folks contact me on occasion to view for my personal satisfaction and to clarify. Hoping for more.

The earliest Swedish Scandinavian that was known to be here in this area is traced to 1818 and a Danish descent 1830. They both were well acquainted with each other, they were both very literate and much of their histories has interesting information, although filled with vacant holes of time. That is the usual case in family history telling and journals that assume the knowledge of the time is known by everyone reading it.

The real influx of people emigrating from Scandinavian countries began in 1850 in the growing St. Paul. Most ethic communities were located early on southerly including Iowa and Wisconsin.  I'm sure they came bearing arms from the homelands and have seen examples that have similarities but compare well with themselves but still the relic has remained uniquely different. It took several more years for communities to develop in the northern areas and pretty much came about with logging and the railroad. Otherwise, this land belonged to the Ojibwe until 1863 when moved out for the valuable timber and minerals.

Thanks again.

Ray

[mountainman70]

Swell rifle Ray. Thanks for the pics and scholarly research. Always been a history buff. Best regards and Holiday greetings. Dave F, Charleston,WV

[Collector]

Being a 'sen' (Dane) v. a 'son' (Swede).  My father's side goes back to 1700's colonial Baltimore, MD in the seafaring business and trades.  Baltimore Town, as it was known back then, was a lot safer to be in than either Philadelphia, or New York and I imagine, for conducting business with agents of the Continental Congress, as well.

A wonderful rifle, even in relic condition, to introduce for our discussion.  Given the condition of the wood and iron parts, the oxygen levels in the immediate environment must have been very low.  I'd speculate that this piece had already been damaged beyond repair (broken forend) and the barrel salvaged, before what we see here was discarded as being without value and left to history.   

Q. Is there a slight step-wrist feature on the relic stock? Appears to be in one of the photos.

[Ray Nelson]

The wrist is quite straight with a gentle swooping to the toe of the buttstock. The slight wrist step in photo's would be the broken trigger guard tab that was loose and hung down a bit during the photo taking.

I am interested in finding more information on the seafaring business process with merchants. I have read information about the secrecy and importance process of the family/friend contacts in Europe to circumvent import taxation in delivery of trade goods including custom specific firearms into this country. I'm interested in finding more info. if out there?

Ray

[Bill Weedman]

Similar design pars from the Guebert Site, a Kaskaskia village near French Ft DeChartres in Southern Illinois. Very interesting.

[Collector]

Not claiming there is any relationship, although the butt carving on the longrifle piece linked below and the side plate engravings on the Lower Hay Lake Rifle do appear to share a organic influence in their designs.

That design had to be popular somewhere in Europe, in furniture making, carved door panels... ?

Link:  https://scavengeology.com/the-flintlock-the-early-virginia-frontiersman-likely-would-have-carried/

[Notchy Bob]

I have enjoyed this thread, and appreciate the historical detective work.  I will look forward to reading more, as the story of this interesting firearm unfolds.

Ray, you did a super job on that reproduction, too!  What a beautiful rifle!  A real game-getter, too.

Notchy Bob

[Ray Nelson]

Thanks Notchy Bob for your comments.

I made this rifle guided by the relic’s unique details in order to have an example that shows the sleek profile pattern that once existed. I used research findings found that I felt would present a rendition that was “fit for the countrey with great satisfaction.”

With so many actual components missing, it’ not meant to be an exact copy by any means. However, it is styled to emulate the standard of a custom specific dimensional ‘rifle gunn’ exported to frontier America area  where I live and likely meant for Native ownership.

It’s interesting to me that the Native groups participating in trade were noted having specific requests for guns and some traders actually tried to meet this demand. Lt. James Gorrell’s 1762 journal while stationed at Green Bay had this great tidbit…”there is a shortage and a high demand for guns of any kind to be brought to the Indians. Furthermore, Superintendent Johnson’s instructions for these post site commanders…”do your best to please the Indians or do not go there.”

The lifestyle of canoe travel, portages and specific Native requests influenced my decisions in regard to the barrel choice’s weight, length etc. I decided to rely on using an original barrel found in the trade area as my example. I unfortunately traded that barrel off to Curly Gostomski well before I started researching the relic. Consequently, from my memory, the barrel became 34 ½”s long to duplicate that specific artifact.

Also, various journals state the Native bands living in the area here constantly made specific requests as can be also found in journals from other areas of country for guns that are…”let the grasp of the stock be somewhat smaller;” the guns have too much wood in the stocks, the Indians like them slender and also to have the guard larger;” “let us trade light guns small in the hand and be well shaped with locks that will not freeze in the winter.”

So remembering early style rifles are unique here, this is my all in a nutshell quick explanation of the Lower Hay Lake rifle rendition. Hopefully, it does reflect favorably to the eye, and does connect with the architecture attributes of the relic gun stock.

Ray

[backsplash75]

 

Minnesota's Oldest Rifle Artifact
Jun 24, 2021
Lakeland PBS