Now you be the judge

[Long John]

Friends,

A while back I indicated that I would post pictures of the little Bucks County Squirrel Rifle I had at the Gunmakers Fair.  (This is my first effort at posting pictures - let's see if I can get this right.)

Here's a few pictures:











Without a doubt this is the best piece of work I have ever done!  I have many of you to thank for that.  It was as if I had a bunch of you sitting on my shoulder  as I was working on it.  Acer wouldn't leave that rough spot there. Jerry wouldn't accept that excuse.  Eric wouldn't let that mistake go uncorrected.  You guys haunted me!

This rifle was assembled from a blank, barrel, lock, TG casting, BP casting and purchased screws.  All other parts were made by me.  It was inspired by RCA 65 (I hope that is obvious!)  It was stained with vinegar/iron stain.

Here is what I learned. 

Due to some family situations here I actuallydidn't finish the rifle before I had to leave for Dixons.  I was screwing parts together at 10:30 Friday night.  Next time I won't be in that position.  You make decisions due to the press of time that you would not make under different circumstances.  There are rough spots in the carving.  This is my first effort at engraving! No time to practice on a piece of plate just learn while doing the rifle.  The engraving is "rough" to say the least.  But it is still the best I have ever done.

The judges deducted points for the patch box being too small and for wrist length. The deducted points for too much wood between patchbox cavity and the butt plate.  They said the patch box was not finished properly, that the wood finish is too thick and that there were rough spots in the engraving (understatement!) and carving.

Some of their comments were well-taken and I have to agree with.  Others are just plain wrong in my opinion.  The length of the wrist and patchbox are correctly proportioned based upon the rifle I was trying to build.  The wood thickness between the BP cavity and the butt plate is exactlywhat Buchelle, Shumway and Alexander recommend.  So, in my view, they deducted points where they should not have.

Nevertheless, all in all it was a valuable experience.  I am pleased.  Now I will finish the rifle and come September Ollie and I are going squirrel hunting!

Best Regards,

John Cholin

[smallpatch]

John,

  Simply Elegant.  A beautiful piece.... nicely done.

[Bill of the 45th]

What the heck do those Juges know, I think it's beautiful, and that nice white Missouri flint just sets it off.  Like long neck beers a sight to behold.

Bill

[Bob Rearley]

Workmanship to be proud of.
Bob

[Dphariss]

Looks fine to me. Knowing yourself what needs fixing is a major part of the battle.
I screw up something on every gun I build it seems like.
Judges can be, well, judges. You know where they were right and where they were wrong so don't sweat it too much.
I am dragging my feet staining one right now because I KNOW I will find a hiccup after I get started on the finish.

Dan

[Rolf]

Beautiful rifle! Long and slim. ! like your vinegar/iron stain. I'm going to try a simlar stain on the pistols I'm making.


Best regards

Rolfkt

[Ed Wenger]

John...

Thanks for posting the pics of your beautiful 'lil squirrel gun.  For those of you who didn't get a chance to see it at Dixon's, it looks even better in person.  It also handles very well and is nicely balanced.  I think you did a great job!

Like Dan said, judges can be judges, and lots of what they look at is subjective.  For what it's worth, I also felt you did a great job on the architecture.  The batchbox dings are typical of the critiques given by the judges.  Anyway, very nice looking rifle, and again thanks for the pictures.  Give Ollie a pat on the head for me and good luck with the squirrels.

[rich pierce]

I really like it and agree the architecture is right for the gun you were emulating, and I love long-wristed guns.  Sometimes the judges look for the "ideal" derived from Golden Mean or something, and lose p;erspective on recreating a style.

Fit and finish look flawless.  Carving is as good or better than most originals.  Engraving is not up to Verner's work but then nobody else in Bucks County was up to his either.  The wrist and lock panels and forearm look right.  Would love to see more.

On the buttstock architecture I'd be tempted to leave a slightly smaller flat area surrounding the patchbox.  The trouble with a beautiful finish is that .030" difference stands out pretty strongly.

I'd think of the rifle like this:  If we found an original that looked like this, even after 215 years of wear and tear and aging, none of us could afford it, and all the judging details and little picky things would simply be "the way they did it then".

As an editorial point, Dixon's judges seem to have a fascination with patchbox cavities and it would be helpful if they issued a paper on correct patchbox cavity dimensions, finish, location , etc.  I'm not kidding.  We're left knowing A is not right, B is not right, C is not right, but not knowing what exactly IS right.

[gibster]

Great looking rifle.  Really like the stain, great color.  How did you make your stain?  I haven't heard of using vinegar and iron before.  I don't know what the judges were looking at, but it looks good to me.
Gibster

[Tim Crosby]

 Looks like a winner to me. Nice job!

Tim C.

[Evil Monkey]

A couple of thoughts from the peanut gallery. Regarding the thickness of the wood rear of the PB cavity, you have three judges at Dixons that agree that it is too thick and three authors that agree that it isnt. Whose right??, I don't know but I wouldn't give the trump card to the authors just because they wrote a book. If the truth in this detail is important to you, I would take this a something to research. However, for me personally, I think this is one of those many places where we over-analyse these things and think that the old masters had a specific measurement for such things. Personally I would have put the rear of the cavity back about 1/8" so it lined up with the center of the rear hinge barrel. This would balance it out nicely with the front of the box which is already centered on the forward hinge barrel. I'm not saying that it's the right way to do it, just how I would do it. Engraveing has rough spots? they are obviously judging against other contemporary work rather than against the old ones. You are obviously happy with the results of your efforts and well you should be. You've done a wonderfull job. Wish I could have been at Dixons to see it in person.

[George F.]

Gee John it looks real nice, and congratulations again! I told you that you did a great job.You deserve a pat on the back. Wanna see the next one...Geo.

[Roger Fisher]

Darn nice and congrats on your ribbon.  Yeah, Judges are Judges... Been there.

So, bring that little beauty along to First Frontier and shoot her in the matches.

[BobT]

In the end the only judge that matters is you. I think it is a beautiful rifle and very well done. As far as the carving and engraving go they are far better than I could have done. The finish is very nice as well. Now the only thing I find troublesome is that the shiny finish will spook them squirrels if you ain't careful!

[Dphariss]

I really like it and agree the architecture is right for the gun you were emulating, and I love long-wristed guns.  Sometimes the judges look for the "ideal" derived from Golden Mean or something, and lose p;erspective on recreating a style.

<snip>

I think the "golden mean" thing gets over worked. While it might be a guide I can't see it as something set in concrete. I would also think that is where they got the "too long wrist" thing. Then we should ask "do all good quality original rifles pass the golden mean?". If not then it is not something to jerk people around on in judging. If they are going to have "rules" of this sort then, like the patchbox thing, they need to make this known. Otherwise it smacks of "secret rules" that can be used to gig makers who are not "properly informed". Then I get distrustful of the whole process.

Dan

[rich pierce]

Agree, all Bucks County rifles are long wristed and that is part of their appeal to me.  The wrist MUST extend past the trigger guard to look right on a Buck's County rifle, for me.

I must say that John's work represented here is at a new level and agree that now I think,  "What would those ALR boys think of this?" when I work.  It sure would be good to be able to have a big workshop with 8 or 10 stations, everybody on the ALR forum stopping in to do some work or offer some advice or perspective.  Guss that would be ALR heaven!  This forum will have to suffice for now.

[ironwolf]

  Great work John. I love it.  I bet it would require considerable courage to enter a gun not really knowing what kind of standards will be in place.

  Kevin

[t.caster]

John, That is one VERY COOL Bucks Co. rifle. Anyone (even the judges) would be proud to carry it!

I'm not seeing the problem they stated about the finish in the pics. One thing you can still do is rub it out with rotten stone and Boiled linseed oil on a soft rag. That really mellows the finish!

[Gene Carrell]

Terrific rifle. I would be proud to carry it anywhere.

[J.D.]

The judges didn't like the Pbox, the wrist, the carving, and the engraving. Screw 'em, you did a very nice job. That is a very well done, slender rifle that effectively captures the essence of a Bucks county rifle. That's what counts.

J.D. who has issues with supposed authority figures.

[Kentucky Jeff]

Firstly, John, I think you nailed #65 from RCA.  Good job I hope to make a rifle as nice someday.  I like your carving.  I like the color of the stock too!

   Second, I sat through a seminar at Dixons this year and one of the judges explained the thought process.   When you compete in the "traditional" rifle category and send up a Buck's County Rifle they look for traditional characteristics of a Buck's County rifle.  If your specimen deviates from their notion of what a Buck's county rifle should look like they deduct points.   If your wrist is too long from their concept of an ideal Buck's country rifle you will loose points.   Architecture and decoration that deviates from the "ideal"  will deduct points even if those features are found on a speciman or two.

   If you pick up RCA and look at #65 and read the description you will see that while it has many Bucks county features it also borrows several features from other schools and is really hard to fully classify in any genre. 

   The way you get around this with the Judges is to send up some pictures with the gun and say...its a recreation of this gun.    Then they will generally judge it in that context.   But if you don't send up that information with the rifle how would they know?  I'm not saying you didn't communicate this to the judges but if you didn't they have no recourse but to compare it to the "ideal" Buck's County rifle. 

   Allen Martin made some great observations about submitting guns... He said that the judges are some of the foremost authorities on PA Longrifles in the world.  That if you have questions about their scoring you should ask them about it--THEY WILL TELL YOU!   The goal here is to learn to get better at this craft.  That if you send up a gun for scoring,  learn from the things that took off points BUT...also look at the things you did correctly!   

Ron Gable was on of the judges and he's been collecting KY rifles for 55 years.  Owns several hundred originals and has probably held in excess of 5,000 originals in his hands.   He's not a builder and will tell you so.   I respectfully defer to such knowledge and when FREE advice is offered from someone like this I think it deserves a listen. 

Doesn't mean John didn't build a superb gun.  Clearly he did.  I think we all can learn from John's build as well. 

   

   

     

[Long John]

Thanks for all the compliments, guys!  

What is best about this rifle for me is all I learned during the process.  I don't think I will ever buy another ramrod thimble; making them myself is just too satisfying.  The same goes for fore-end caps and triggers.  Even Roger liked the trigger on this rifle and he is known to be a might particular when it comes to the shooting aspects of a piece.  

At every aspect of the build I ended up pushing myself out beyond my knowledge and comfort zone thanks to comments made hear by the likes of Jerry, Acer and Eric.  That made the whole project an adventure.  I have them to thank for that.  The critiques I received from my ALR friends last year when the rifle was in the white were invaluable.  They made a profound improvement in the final product.

This forum really does provide a route to improving ones skill in the craft!

To answer the question on vinegar/iron stain, I just take old, iron barbed wire off old fence posts and toss it into a croc or jar of white cider vinegar.  The vinegar slowly reacts with the iron to produce iron acetate solution.  I simply raise the grain with the solution, usually 3 or 4 times.  When the stock stops smelling like vinegar all the iron acetate has converted to iron oxides.  No heating necessary.

Best Regards,

John Cholin

[David Rase]

John,  First off, you have a nice looking rifle, wish I had got to take a look at it in person while I was there.  I have one question for you.  I know from meeting you that you are a tall guy so I was wondering what the length of pull is on your gun.  From the pictures the wrist as well as the buttstock look proportioned to each other so I am assuming the pull was made for you.  We have one guy out here in Washington who insists on using a 15" length of pull.  With that pull it is really hard to proportion the rest of the rifle so no matter how you look at it, it just don't look right.  Keep up the good work.
Dave

[T*O*F]

The judges deducted points for the patch box being too small and for wrist length.

John,
I went back and studied your pictures a bit and "may" have an answer.  Your trigger appears to be too long and slanted backwards.  If it were straight and shorter, it would fit into the bow better.  The front of your trigger bow is even with your cock screw.  If the trigger was done properly, you could move the guard forward so the bow would be directly between the cock and the pan, but your trigger would still be near the back of the bow.

In turn, this would allow you to shorten your wrist length by a proportional amount, solving the appearance of the overly long wrist.  In turn, the patchbox might "appear" to be larger.  Everything is about tricking the eye to make it look right, not necessarily actual measurements.

Anyone else concur?

[Leatherbelly]

John,
 I really like Bucks County guns! You did a very nice job on yours, and I believe you made it to fit you, and I believe you're a tall man. Judges are just that,judges,no matter. I had a nice Bucks years ago and kick myself for letting her go. I know you're going to shoot 'er good! Great job,John!

ps,after you post an image,Click ENTER,and post your next image, you get a nice space between your shots.