Americanized german jaegers

[Dan Fruth]

I found these images and what to get some opinions.



https://www.morphyauctions.com/jamesdjulia/item/3329-369/

The similarities are striking. Evidence for Americanized jaegers seems to be out there if one searches for it.

[rich pierce]

That’s a great Germanic rifle. I’ve liked that one for years. I’m not aware of evidence if it being stocked here. The similarities to Bucks County guns are intriguing.

Regarding identifying American made, 1740-1770 period short barreled rifles: I’m not sure it is easy or even possible to strongly conclude an early gun stocked here was scratch built from new parts. The scant written record does not show orders for barrels under 3’ long, so far as I know. It’s easy to see why a good rifle barrel from a used up or busted up European rifle would be re-stocked here. Less easy to see why a gunsmith here in the 1740 to 1770 era would buy or forge a short rifle barrel for a new build. The lines between composite guns and scratch built guns are often blurry.

[Dan Fruth]

I guess I should have said American versions of German jaegers. The auction rifle is very similar to the jaeger.

[Stophel]

I would never have considered the auction gun to be from Bucks county (or ANY American location).  German or Belgian.  1780.

[Tim Crosby]

 "ONDITION: Flintlock is a reconversion. Bbl and forestock have been lengthened approximately 20″.
That makes no sense to me, so the barrel was one 26" long? Wonder where it is now?

 Can't get to the provenance page but that probably because the auction was seven years ago.

  Tim C.

[Stophel]

One problem we have is that collectors are often automatically considered "experts".

[Stophel]

I found these images and what to get some opinions.

This gun looks like something you would see from far western Germany.  Very French in form.  Somewhere like maybe Zweibruecken.

[Mike Brooks]

The term "Americanized Jeager" makes me uncomfortable.

[Stophel]

The term "Jaeger" referring to the rifle makes me uncomfortable...

[Stophel]

This is the ONLY on-line rifle I can find from Zweibrücken.  A very nice little Bock gun with very obviously browned barrels.

https://www.hermann-historica.de/de/auctions/lot/id/5241

[DavidC]

I'm interested in seeing this topic revitalized for my benefit and it seems better to bring this one back from cold storage than to start a new one.

I'm also curious as to the foil of this post's question: Were there European long rifles that seem notably similar to the styles of the various American schools?

[rich pierce]

I'm interested in seeing this topic revitalized for my benefit and it seems better to bring this one back from cold storage than to start a new one.

I'm also curious as to the foil of this post's question: Were there European long rifles that seem notably similar to the styles of the various American schools?

It seems to me that many of what we call “schools” of longrifles were regional phases, that developed after first immigrant gunsmiths settled in an area and began work. Let’s take the Bucks County “type”. Verner and Shuler come to mind. Their guns date mostly from 1790-1810. For those who think Wm. Antes’ signed guns or other early gunsmith’s work show strong Bucks County styling and furniture, let’s discuss whether it’s reasonable to expect the styling was imported, rather than developed here.

In science there is the concept of convergent evolution. For example, whales and fish have fins and such. Yet the predecessors of whales were land animals related to the ancestors of cattle. No direct connection between fish and whales, dolphins, porpoises and so on. In other words, similar architecture can develop in multiple places without any reasonable connection.

[DaveM]

one major difference I have noticed, is I don't think I have ever seen an 18th or early 19th century european rifle with a simple brass rectangular patchbox lid.  That does not mean they did not exist, I just don't recall ever seeing one.  I have seen a few extremely ornate rifles with what may be brass lids, but not on more every-man guns.  If anyone has it would be interesting to see examples.  Seeing the differences between many of the american schools can be easier when they have the brass boxes.

[DavidC]

I'm interested in seeing this topic revitalized for my benefit and it seems better to bring this one back from cold storage than to start a new one.

I'm also curious as to the foil of this post's question: Were there European long rifles that seem notably similar to the styles of the various American schools?

In science there is the concept of convergent evolution. For example, whales and fish have fins and such. Yet the predecessors of whales were land animals related to the ancestors of cattle. No direct connection between fish and whales, dolphins, porpoises and so on. In other words, similar architecture can develop in multiple places without any reasonable connection.

Carcinization - the tendency for evolution to keep developing the basic form of ... the crab. Not sure how to twist that into a longrifle metaphor. It was my understanding, often read in different works by different authors, that the form of the longrifle was the byproduct of needing good velocity and consistency from inconsistent powder while minimizing the charge and the amount of lead needed for each shot. The end-product being, or at least seeming to have a reputation for being, more accurate than typical European rifles. Maybe that understanding is flawed? If the American longrifle is superior I would expect its form to be copied back in the old countries or for there to be some strong correlation pointing toward the works of colonial artisans influencing Europe.

I confess I'm not trustworthy to research that because I do hope this was the case as it would be a good piece of concrete evidence against the notion that art was something Europe disseminated to the colonies and only in one direction.

[rich pierce]

The longrifle is not superior to contemporaneous European rifles. It’s not clear to me, despite the old adages, why it developed as it did. I don’t care how many times the same theories, based on zero period documentation, have been repeated.

I thought this topic was about whether specific “schools” of longrifles mirrored specific European styles because they were imported, brought here by European gunsmiths trained in that style. Maybe I’m confused (again). 

[Dwshotwell]

The longrifle is not superior to contemporaneous European rifles. It’s not clear to me, despite the old adages, why it developed as it did.

Just an observation: for a design to catch on doesn’t require it to actually be superior, only for the customers to believe it is superior. In these instances, there are a lot of variables that would have been hard to measure, particularly in the 18th century, but would have boiled down to whether folks believed a particular rifle “shot better” than others and wanting something that copied it.