lock initials????

[WESTbury]

The lock in the picture below is from a rifle I have. The lock measures 3/4 inch wide behind the pan and is 5-1/4 inches in length. The bridle has bronze or copper bushing for the tumbler's pivot pin. I'm quite certain it is a recon.

My reason for posting it is because of the raised initials "HB" in a small sunken rectangular cartouche in the center of the plate. On page 37 of the third edition of Kindig's book, he presents a number initials he found stamped into the lockplates.

My question is, has there been any research done on these initials in the intervening years?

Also shown below is a photo of the lock mortice. The touch-hole is quite blown out which is unusual for a recon.

I do not as yet have a photo of the exterior. The lockplate itself looks very similar to the lock on Kindig #21 with one screw tip showing behind the cock and has a replaced battery and battery spring.

Thanks in advance for your input.
Kent

[JTR]

As for the initials, that's my understanding as well. Further research, good question.

You might be correct, but I don't see anything to suggest a reconversion. Certainly not the touch hole.

[smart dog]

Hi Kent,
I don't think it is a reconversion either.  It just has a separate pan and bolster like many German locks.  With respect to HB, I wish I had a copy of Der Neue Stockel, which records marks of many European gun makers and gun related tradesmen. 

dave

[Robert Wolfe]

The topjaw screw looks modern. Can't tell on the cock but the frizzen and pan look old. Can't help on the initials.

[WESTbury]

Robert,

I cropped the photo of the lock interior to make it more manageable. Below is the uncropped photo. I think the top jaw and definitely the screw are a replacements. The battery spring has a small roller.

Thanks for your input.

Kent

[cshirsch]

Please post a photo of the front of the lock.

[WESTbury]

CSHIRSCH,
Okay, here's an up close picture of the outside of the lock.

As I pointed out before in this thread, the battery and battery spring are replacements. The pan is unbridled which is usually an early feature, and may be original to the lock. This rifle has been fired a lot as is shown by the photo of the blown out touch hole and the loss of wood to the right of the battery. Springs wore out and battery faces became soft so the fact they are replaced is not surprising. The top jaw and probably its screw are replacements in my opinion.

The early style lock fits with all of the other components of the rifle. My interest in starting this thread was to get some input on the initials stamped into the interior surface of the lockplate. But, I greatly appreciate everybody's interest and comments about the lock.

Also, I apologize for the quality of the photo.

Kent

[cshirsch]

Please post a photo of the front of the lock.

Could very well be an American made lock.  I would definitely consider replacing the frizzen & spring with proper parts.  I probably have castings for it that would work.

[WESTbury]

CS,

Thanks for taking the time to check out the lock. This is very interesting to me, on a number of levels.

What features about the lock lead you to the conclusion that it might possibly be American made? In your opinion, was the installation of the bushing in bridle to make up for wear to the tumbler pivot pin and the hole in the bridle? This rifle has obviously been fired many times given the blown out touchhole, so you would expect wear in bridle.

Kindig, who wasn't always correct, came to the conclusion that locks on most rifles were imported. I'm assuming the initials are those of the person who made the lock. I know for sure that they are not the initials of the rifle stocker.

I've looked for component matching marks on the various internal lock components but thus far I cannot detect any.

Kent

[utseabee]

How about a photo of the rifle too?

[WESTbury]

How about a photo of the rifle too?

It has been dis-assembled to take photos of the components. When I get everything together again I will be posting many detailed photos along with measurements and descriptions much like I did with my book on Springfield Armory Flintlock muskets. Some of those were posted on this forum last year.

Thanks for your interest!

[WESTbury]

Kent,
Here's the inside of an original American made flintlock, from my Bucks County rifle.
The touchmark looks like IB. And it needs a bridle bushing!
Also the outside for the frizzen and spring.

Now that is interesting John. I appreciate you posting the photos. Would you mind if I downloaded the photos for my reference?

[JTR]

Feel free to download them, Kent.
If you want another view, just let me know.

Also, this rifle was shot a lot, and if you look closely, you'll see a small brass colored liner in the touch hole of this rifle. Diameter of the liner is about 1/8", so there for a shot out touch hole, and much too small for the threads of a percussion drum.

[WESTbury]

Diameter of the liner is about 1/8", so there for a shot out touch hole, and much too small for the threads of a percussion drum.

Yea, that is way to small for a threaded drum. These bushed touchholes are very common on military muskets.

Springfield had a terrific problem with touchholes lining up with the pan. I've seen quite a few with 1/4"dia bushings pressed in and a new hole drilled in the correct location. The 1/4" dia seems to have been a standard as it was large enough to plug the off position hole and with enough meat to drill a new hole without ending up with a thin wall.

[cshirsch]

CS,

Thanks for taking the time to check out the lock. This is very interesting to me, on a number of levels.

What features about the lock lead you to the conclusion that it might possibly be American made? In your opinion, was the installation of the bushing in bridle to make up for wear to the tumbler pivot pin and the hole in the bridle? This rifle has obviously been fired many times given the blown out touchhole, so you would expect wear in bridle.

Kindig, who wasn't always correct, came to the conclusion that locks on most rifles were imported. I'm assuming the initials are those of the person who made the lock. I know for sure that they are not the initials of the rifle stocker.

I've looked for component matching marks on the various internal lock components but thus far I cannot detect any.

Kent

I have come to the conclusion that these locks were made in the USA.  I am not an expert on anything but I do know that I have NEVER seen the classic 'Germanic' lock (found on American longrifles, smooth/rifles, fowlers, and pistols) on a European gun. I have studied these locks and I own five of them.  I have also made molds from an original flint one from a George Shroyer rifle.  I will be very confident of this until I see some valid documents proving otherwise. 

[WESTbury]

CS,

You make a very interesting point and thanks for your insight and sharing your views. You would think that the German gunstockers would use domestic products as a matter of course. Being part German myself, I know that includes practicality and common sense.

Kent

[JTR]

CS, Where in the world did you find 5 of these locks?
Or did you buy the locks and get the guns too!
Curiously, John

[JV Puleo]

I suspect the initials are those of the lock maker - who was almost certainly not the gunmaker. Gun lock making was a specialty trade by the middle of the 18th century - and probably a lot earlier (though we lack documentation going back that far). I also doubt it was made in the US. While I can't say no American ever made a gun lock, it appears to me that, statistically, the only "American made" locks prior to the 1850s were for military contract arms and, even there, it was necessary to import much of the raw materials and tools. There were cogent reasons for this...unfortunately, too much to go into detail on an internet forum.

[WESTbury]

I suspect the initials are those of the lock maker - who was almost certainly not the gunmaker. Gun lock making was a specialty trade by the middle of the 18th century - and probably a lot earlier (though we lack documentation going back that far).

Great to hear from you Joe.

I agree that the initials are the lock maker. The are definitely not the initials of the rifle stocker, I know who that was, as the barrel is signed.

I'm curious about your book.

Kent

[cshirsch]

I suspect the initials are those of the lock maker - who was almost certainly not the gunmaker. Gun lock making was a specialty trade by the middle of the 18th century - and probably a lot earlier (though we lack documentation going back that far). I also doubt it was made in the US. While I can't say no American ever made a gun lock, it appears to me that, statistically, the only "American made" locks prior to the 1850s were for military contract arms and, even there, it was necessary to import much of the raw materials and tools. There were cogent reasons for this...unfortunately, too much to go into detail on an internet forum.

Respectfully, I would like to know what research you can show me that eliminates Americans from building locks for sporting arms in the 1700s.  I am fully aware of the theories that Kindig and others claimed as fact.   I would love to discuss/debate this matter at length someday.  Explanations without corroborating documentation is pretty much speculation.  I really do not know why there is the misconception that American builders (many were transplants from Europe) did not have the ability to create gun locks.  Of course, all of this is my humble opinion based on many years of observations and research.

[backsplash75]

CS,

Thanks for taking the time to check out the lock. This is very interesting to me, on a number of levels.

What features about the lock lead you to the conclusion that it might possibly be American made? In your opinion, was the installation of the bushing in bridle to make up for wear to the tumbler pivot pin and the hole in the bridle? This rifle has obviously been fired many times given the blown out touchhole, so you would expect wear in bridle.

Kindig, who wasn't always correct, came to the conclusion that locks on most rifles were imported. I'm assuming the initials are those of the person who made the lock. I know for sure that they are not the initials of the rifle stocker.

I've looked for component matching marks on the various internal lock components but thus far I cannot detect any.

Kent

I have come to the conclusion that these locks were made in the USA.  I am not an expert on anything but I do know that I have NEVER seen the classic 'Germanic' lock (found on American longrifles, smooth/rifles, fowlers, and pistols) on a European gun. I have studied these locks and I own five of them.  I have also made molds from an original flint one from a George Shroyer rifle.  I will be very confident of this until I see some valid documents proving otherwise. 

Interesting theory. One could argue that with all of the newspaper ads for imported locks/barrels/mountings from the pre Revolutionary war period and the small number of American gunsmith signed locks that it was likely simply more economically effective to buy an imported lock from a European lockmaker vs making one here even if the smith was capable of that (Newcomer, for example used both locks he made himself as well as "off the shelf" locks). Given what appears to be a fairly early market driven aesthetic, it wouldn't shock me if Euro lockmakers had an "American" rifle pattern, heck we know the preference for longer barrel lengths for Wistar started earlier. The RevWar Brit Indian rifles sure seemed to have been copies of a Lancaster gun, although those have flat Brit locks with no tail filing. Places like Liege churned out copies of French/British/Dutch arms by the thousands (that city would knock off whatever pattern arm you wanted fairly cheaply), it seems to me that such is the likely origin point for many of these locks, hopefully a compilation of known makers marks to the pattern can emerge and point us towards an origin.

Collection: The South Carolina Gazette
Publication: The South-Carolina GAZETTE
Date: February 25, 1764
Title: JOHN DODD, Gunsmith,
Location: CHARLES-TOWN

BEST Dutch, rifles , with moulds and wipes, flat rifle locks, from 20 sh. to 65.round ditto, brass mountings for ditto, a variety of smooth bore barrels, which, with sundry other articles in the gunsmiths way, he will sell cheap, at his shop in Meeting-street.

N.B. Said Dodd is in want of 4 or 500 feet of WALNUT PLANK, from two inches and and an half, to three inches thickness, for which Nine Pounds per hundred will be even delivered at any wharf in Charles-Town. ?

October 4, 1770
The Pennsylvania Gazette

SAMUEL HOWELL HAS, at his Store, in Water street, near Chestnut street, a Quantity of Jamaica Rum; Madeira Wine, from 40 l. to 60l. per Pipe;
100 German Rifle Barrels, and Locks.

Collection: The Pennsylvania Gazette
Publication: The Pennsylvania Gazette
Date: February 17, 1773
Title: Philadelphia, February 15, 1773.

Philadelphia, February 15, 1773. To be SOLD very cheap, for cash only, by CONRAD BATIS, Living in Market street, next door to the corner of Third street, opposite to the goal, in Philadelphia, A QUANTITY of this country and
German made RIFLES , both cut and smooth bores, in the best manner; also a quantity of German made GUNS and PISTOLS, likewise gun mountings, barrels and locks, a quantity of violins and violin strings; a reasonable abatement
will be made to such as buy a quantity to sell again, of any of the aforesaid articles.

N.B. The said Conrad Batis pays ready money for clean LINEN RAGS.

[cshirsch]

CS,

Thanks for taking the time to check out the lock. This is very interesting to me, on a number of levels.

What features about the lock lead you to the conclusion that it might possibly be American made? In your opinion, was the installation of the bushing in bridle to make up for wear to the tumbler pivot pin and the hole in the bridle? This rifle has obviously been fired many times given the blown out touchhole, so you would expect wear in bridle.

Kindig, who wasn't always correct, came to the conclusion that locks on most rifles were imported. I'm assuming the initials are those of the person who made the lock. I know for sure that they are not the initials of the rifle stocker.

I've looked for component matching marks on the various internal lock components but thus far I cannot detect any.

Kent

I have come to the conclusion that these locks were made in the USA.  I am not an expert on anything but I do know that I have NEVER seen the classic 'Germanic' lock (found on American longrifles, smooth/rifles, fowlers, and pistols) on a European gun. I have studied these locks and I own five of them.  I have also made molds from an original flint one from a George Shroyer rifle.  I will be very confident of this until I see some valid documents proving otherwise. 

Interesting theory. One could argue that with all of the newspaper ads for imported locks/barrels/mountings from the pre Revolutionary war period and the small number of American gunsmith signed locks that it was likely simply more economically effective to buy an imported lock from a European lockmaker vs making one here even if the smith was capable of that (Newcomer, for example used both locks he made himself as well as "off the shelf" locks). Given what appears to be a fairly early market driven aesthetic, it wouldn't shock me if Euro lockmakers had an "American" rifle pattern, heck we know the preference for longer barrel lengths for Wistar started earlier. The RevWar Brit Indian rifles sure seemed to have been copies of a Lancaster gun, although those have flat Brit locks with no tail filing. Places like Liege churned out copies of French/British/Dutch arms by the thousands (that city would knock off whatever pattern arm you wanted fairly cheaply), it seems to me that such is the likely origin point for many of these locks, hopefully a compilation of known makers marks to the pattern can emerge and point us towards an origin.

Collection: The South Carolina Gazette
Publication: The South-Carolina GAZETTE
Date: February 25, 1764
Title: JOHN DODD, Gunsmith,
Location: CHARLES-TOWN

BEST Dutch, rifles , with moulds and wipes, flat rifle locks, from 20 sh. to 65.round ditto, brass mountings for ditto, a variety of smooth bore barrels, which, with sundry other articles in the gunsmiths way, he will sell cheap, at his shop in Meeting-street.

N.B. Said Dodd is in want of 4 or 500 feet of WALNUT PLANK, from two inches and and an half, to three inches thickness, for which Nine Pounds per hundred will be even delivered at any wharf in Charles-Town. ?

October 4, 1770
The Pennsylvania Gazette

SAMUEL HOWELL HAS, at his Store, in Water street, near Chestnut street, a Quantity of Jamaica Rum; Madeira Wine, from 40 l. to 60l. per Pipe;
100 German Rifle Barrels, and Locks.

Collection: The Pennsylvania Gazette
Publication: The Pennsylvania Gazette
Date: February 17, 1773
Title: Philadelphia, February 15, 1773.

Philadelphia, February 15, 1773. To be SOLD very cheap, for cash only, by CONRAD BATIS, Living in Market street, next door to the corner of Third street, opposite to the goal, in Philadelphia, A QUANTITY of this country and
German made RIFLES , both cut and smooth bores, in the best manner; also a quantity of German made GUNS and PISTOLS, likewise gun mountings, barrels and locks, a quantity of violins and violin strings; a reasonable abatement
will be made to such as buy a quantity to sell again, of any of the aforesaid articles.

N.B. The said Conrad Batis pays ready money for clean LINEN RAGS.

I too have seen the ads run that offer barrels and locks but have not seen the one offering '100 German Rifle Barrels, and Locks'.  The fact remains that I have never seen a European made gun with the classic 'Germanic' lock used on American guns.  There are many differences between the locks found on European guns and those that were used on the classic American longrifles.  IMHO

[backsplash75]

I too have seen the ads run that offer barrels and locks but have not seen the one offering '100 German Rifle Barrels, and Locks'.  The fact remains that I have never seen a European made gun with the classic 'Germanic' lock used on American guns.  There are many differences between the locks found on European guns and those that were used on the classic American longrifles.  IMHO

If the European origin hypothesis is correct, I'd suspect that trawling through Dutch/Belgian/German/English gunmaker archives would put forth some contracts and info that may refer to an "American" ( Siler) rifle lock pattern, either way the maker's initials will be telling if a compilation of them can be assembled and this is the place to do it.

Moravian Gun Making 1 has a nice quote showing everything in the mix (price variations omitted for brevity).

p33 1767 May:

In Stock in the Gunstocking Shop...1 finished rifle lock by Albrecht...1 English lock....1 Do...1 German lock...4 Do....2 English do...

[cshirsch]

I too have seen the ads run that offer barrels and locks but have not seen the one offering '100 German Rifle Barrels, and Locks'.  The fact remains that I have never seen a European made gun with the classic 'Germanic' lock used on American guns.  There are many differences between the locks found on European guns and those that were used on the classic American longrifles.  IMHO

If the European origin hypothesis is correct, I'd suspect that trawling through Dutch/Belgian/German/English gunmaker archives would put forth some contracts and info that may refer to an "American" ( Siler) rifle lock pattern, either way the maker's initials will be telling if a compilation of them can be assembled and this is the place to do it.

Moravian Gun Making 1 has a nice quote showing everything in the mix (price variations omitted for brevity).

p33 1767 May:

In Stock in the Gunstocking Shop...1 finished rifle lock by Albrecht...1 English lock....1 Do...1 German lock...4 Do....2 English do...

I surely hope someone does that research someday.  If my theory is proven false, I will happily stand corrected.

[JV Puleo]

I suspect the initials are those of the lock maker - who was almost certainly not the gunmaker. Gun lock making was a specialty trade by the middle of the 18th century - and probably a lot earlier (though we lack documentation going back that far).

Great to hear from you Joe.

I agree that the initials are the lock maker. The are definitely not the initials of the rifle stocker, I know who that was, as the barrel is signed.

I'm curious about your book.

Kent

Unfortunately, the book is on hold until I can get back into the National Archives. I found a great deal of new material in the British Archives last year but I have to follow it up and the material I need is in Philadelphia, New York and Atlanta, all three of which I may have to visit.

The good part is that I've found some very interesting information - some of which I'm sure will upset some people. As George Neumann once said to me..."I know that's true but if you say it they'll be hanging you in effigy". Strangely enough, DeWitt made the same comment.

As to gun lock making in America...my reasons for doubting it was ever done in anything like a commercial sense (which is not to say the no one ever made a gun lock) has as much to do with economics and materials as it does with observation of existing examples. Frankly, I feel that drawing conclusions from observation very risky. The antique arms world is full this - often based on a long previous conclusions drawn from sketchy evidence and sanctified by repetition. However, I freely admit that my interest is English guns. What material I've collected on continental types is peripheral...but, one need only look at the plaintive advertisements placed in Philadelphia and New York newspapers at the beginning of the Revolution, looking for any "mechanic" who might be capable of making a gun lock (like locksmiths and clock makers) to grasp that it was not a commonly seen skill.